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Author Topic: On-Line Tournaments  (Read 7351 times)
chunkymick
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« on: February 05, 2005, 04:35:37 PM »

I have recently begun playing Tournaments ($20, $30 and $100) on-line and have got off to a good start, reaching 3 final tables and have made a profit of approx' $2500. Although I should be well pleased with my results so far I have become increasingly worried about the predictability of my starting hands and the outcome of the flop.

I normally play on Party Poker, and Ladbrokes. Are these sites creating genuine random hands or does anybody smell anything fishy, like myself.

yours views please.
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"Big" Micky Jones
tikay
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2005, 04:49:31 PM »

Wow, that's novel - you are winning plenty, but you STILL smell a rat!

Well I am afraid I belong to the "no-conspiracy" lobby, I happen to think the online sites are straight. Why? It seems so obvious to me - motive. Why on earth shoud they "fix" it?

They get their rake or registration fee whatever the outcome, & the bigger sites are making unbelievably huge sums of money without having to gamble or mess about. It's a perfect business model to my mind. Design a piece of software - just the once - & watch the money come in, 24/7, it keeps rolling in. Why should they interfere with that guaranteed profit?

Collusion - now THAT is a different story, & of course it goes off - online AND live - but that was not your point.

Finally, I don't suppose you are gonna tell us your online name? OK, we wlll just watch out for a guy with K-T "shovelling it in" pre-flop..... Wink
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2005, 04:58:29 PM »

I agree with Tikay in that there's no conspiracy, however I do think sites vary in the randomness of the deals which I thinkis more the point mick brings up. Party SEEMED (though I cant back it up with figures or hand historys) to have more than it's share of runner runner straights and flushes. also AA seemed to get beat alot by lower pairs which there alwats seemed to be plenty of. I know you play enough you'll see everything and I know A,A isnt 100% against anything preflo but although the evidence was only empirical it seems 'odd'.

I've found UB feels fairly straight. sure the players still shout conspiracy when they suffer a beat but the cards seem to fall genuinely enough for me.

Laddies I found it hard to concetrate on the randomness of the cards because of the randomness of alot of the players.

Try blue square. it's hilarious at the lower stakes
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chunkymick
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2005, 05:00:02 PM »

Nice hearing from you Tikay.

I don't truly feel that the game is "fixed" but maybe the software has a glitch. I once read an article regarding gaming software, explaining how difficult it is to create a genuine random number with some experts saying it is impossible.

I dunno, maybe it is all in my head. Are there any Techno Geeks out there that could maybe put my mind to rest.
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"Big" Micky Jones
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2005, 05:09:42 PM »

"Randomness" (is that word?) of the shuffle in online poker is a question that has been aired at great length on all the major poker forums, & it's all a bit deep for me.

But as I understand it, there are two methods. One determines the ENTIRE board BEFORE the deal starts, just as in "real" poker. And the other has a RNG (Random Number Generator) software package that does NOT determine the NEXT card until all the action on the previous card or flop has been completed. So saying "shit, I would have hit top pair if I had stayed in" or whatever is not true, because if you had stayed in, the next card would have been different.

I implicitly trust PokerStars & William Hill. I do not distrust any of the others, because I just dont know enough about them.

I recall asking your online name, remind me what you said it was, cough cough......
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2005, 05:15:29 PM »

actually, my previous post is wrong, it was stars I ws unhappy with but you use stars dont you Tony. maybe you like it because you're plaing alot of draws on the flop hey?

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chunkymick
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2005, 05:17:43 PM »

 Well, well, well you are not just a pretty face then. Wherever did you get that info from.
With regards to my Screen name, it will always be "Chunkymick"
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"Big" Micky Jones
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2005, 05:33:04 PM »

There have been heaps of threads & posts on The Hendon Mob Forum about this. If you are a HMF registered user (& even maybe if you are not) go to their Forum, go to "Search Messages", type "RNG" into the search box, & a handful will come up.

And it was from this that I learned (correctly or otherwise) that PokerStars cards are pre-determined BEFORE the flop, & do not potentially get reshuffled or changed before any further cards are dealt, or depending on who passes.

Given that The Hendon Mob Forum has more viewers than blonde (just a few.....MILLION!") if you were to ask your question there, I am sure you would be deluged by replies, some of which would make sense.
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Karabiner
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2005, 07:57:20 PM »

Most of them would say " oh no not this again!"

 Wink

BTW was that multi-table tourneys or single ?

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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2005, 10:08:13 AM »

Try Pacific Poker.......resembles a great big Aquarium full of Koi carp...

Tip: If your lifestyle enables it, play at 3-5am UK time. Pacific is very US (linked to a casino operation I think) and anytime from 9PM to the early hours on the East Coast of the US the play loosens up considerably and you'll get called to the river by anything

So far this calendar year I'm $4000 up on a bankroll of $500 playing STT $30+3,$50+5 etc and have not got within a sniff of a final table playing bricks and mortar in the UK. Only an average player learning fast.

I don't dare go back to my other accounts at places like Wm Hill and UB, but will when some of you turn up on Pacific!!!!
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Scaramanga
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2005, 12:25:39 PM »

Micky

My advice is to try and win as much as you can in the first month or so - take it all out and remove the site from your PC. Do this for each site. They will 'let' you win to start with and then destroy you with the most ridiculous sequence of bad beats you have ever seen.

I know i sound like an old cynic and i am - but i am talking through my pocket and through experience.

i have beeen winning year on year for last 15 years in live games (comps and cash) and started to dabble into online a few years ago. I stopped after a few months on paradise because it was too surreal to be believed - an experience shared by all the other players on there i spoke to.

I then had a pop on pokerstars. After getting to grips (or at least thinking i was) with the action flop - river outer nature of the software i began to do ok. Built up a nice little float (10k +). Took some out and hit the old cash out curse phenomena. Now all this sounds like a cliche i know and those who think its all legit will be grinning and laughing their socks off. Call it what you like i was systematically butchered in a run of over 150 consecutive runner runner situations or case card hits. I have the hand histories but they are even more boring than this text.

I hope this serves as a warning to those who venture into online poker and expect it to be their saviour. I am talking about comps only here - i dabbled in ring games - but found them a little tight on the whole. Only good game i have ever played was the 5/10 10/20 pot limit hi-lo on Ladbrokes - when it gets going that is some game.

In response to point above about ' why would they fix it or use action flops ' when they make enough money already through the rake - why the hell wouldnt they ? If you can make 2 or 3 times more money by tweaking with the software or purchasing action flop software - why not ? There is no regulation and the punters will never be able to find out. There are plenty of mugs (like me) who are quite prepared to keep on going in the vain hope that it will one day appear to play like live poker.

I am sure there are plenty of players out there making a nice tidy package - mainly ring game players i would expect. But for me as much as i am completely addicted to it - i have decided that enough is enough.

Micky - take your money and run. The games doesnt feel right because it isnt.

Just one opinion - RGP forum has some interesting stuff on this subject too.

If online poker is so realistic why is it that so many people complain or question it ?

Scaramanga
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Rupert
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2005, 04:26:21 PM »

Quote
My advice is to try and win as much as you can in the first month or so - take it all out and remove the site from your PC. Do this for each site. They will 'let' you win to start with and then destroy you with the most ridiculous sequence of bad beats you have ever seen.

Apologies for not taking the time to read your whole post but like others I belong to the online poker not rigged bandwagon.  It is basic human psychology that once you've got the money you will start gambling with it and hence get more "ridiculous beats" -- its sort of like a tilt because you're winning.  You are correct in removing them from your PC, but it isn't because of the bad beats you are supposedly getting.
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luckyblind
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2005, 05:54:41 PM »

There is a flaw in the 'cash out and a lose button gets pressed' at a poker site . This would be a terrible idea for any site in terms of lost profit opportunities. If people were deliberately given a reason to belive this they wouldn't play online poker after experiencing it. I am more in agreement with the 'start winnning and you get over-confident' brigade of thinking, having spotted it in my own game after a good run. Looking at my own accounts, nearly all my big cash game losses have come after a reasonable tournament win.  These are mostly live game's so it can't be the cash out theory. I always cash out after a big online tournie win and yet I am still getting a similar ratio of final tables per event played.
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2005, 07:55:47 PM »

Rupert


Thanks for those pearls of wisdom. I offered my views gleaned from a lot of experience. I am actually a winning online player overall - not a lot to justify all the time spent on it. So your little remark re ' You are correct in removing them from your PC, but it isn't because of the bad beats you are supposedly getting ' is not only irksome but a little off beam old chap. You clearly see yourself as some kind of superior player / person.

We have all had different experiences and entitled to differing views. I make no comments to the ability or otherwise of the players.

Having said i would be happy to reinstall any site software and whip your ass heads up - any stake any game.

Call me old fashioned or call me childish.

I am both.

Whatever criticism is made of online poker the supporters always churn out the same old nonsense. If it dont feel right it aint right. end of story. If you are making good cash out of it then I doff my cap in your general direction. I think if most people are utterly honest they are not winning and are spending far too much time on it. Anyone see that article about glaucoma links to PC usage? Makes interesting reading - if you can still read.

Just to be serious for one second - i have never changed my game win lose or draw. I am tight as a nats chuff. In fact tighter than that. Nothing to do with tilt or playing more hands - or anything else that you care to churn up. For whatever reason i was just unable or not allowed to proceed beyond a certain point in comps. Went on for ages. Somehow i generally placed and got my cash back. But wasted a whole load of time and lost a lot of hair.

I think that will do for now. If you think its straight fine - but i for one have never ever seen as many quads and str8 flushes in NL HE in my life. In the words of Mr Jim Royle ' RNG my arse'.

And on that note...
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Rupert
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2005, 08:31:35 PM »

Aha sorry if I came across as rude or arrogant in my post I didnt mean it that way.  I respect your views on online poker but I think that there would be some very serious cases against poker rooms if they were found to be putting people on tilt as such and I have not heard of any such cases.

Once again sorry if I came across badly, and I am sure you could beat me because i'm not a very good player and no doubt you probably are
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