Cash game.... set over set

[dan]

Right i will start off by being honest im no good at cash, at least i dont think im any good.

i had been running well in stt and won a couple of multis in the last week, so i thought i would give cash a crack. I sit down at a $1/$2 table and put $85 to start with just to test the water. I played quite tight to start with just to suss the table out and it became clear that 1 guy was on the loose side. I dont want to go into details but i got it in with the best if it and he stacked me, not to be put off by this i put another $125 down and start again, i built this up to about $250 but managed to lose most of it to a guy chasing the flush on  a paired bored. .

At tis point i decided that was enough..... until this morning, i sat down with $40 at a $0.50/$1 table and this hand arose quite early.


Game #4021609744: Hold'em NL ($0.50/$1) - 2006/11/19 - 07:35:29 (UK)
Table "Brandnew" Seat 3 is the button.
Seat 1: mikey88 ($72 in chips)
Seat 2: Tony30124 ($100.50 in chips)
Seat 3: drengen22 ($90.25 in chips)
Seat 4: Jvedesous ($51.17 in chips)
Seat 5: wormy ($36.75 in chips)
Seat 6: hansengus ($80.63 in chips)
Jvedesous: posts small blind $0.50
wormy: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to wormy [ ]
hansengus: raises to $3
mikey88: folds
Tony30124: folds
drengen22: folds
Jvedesous: folds
wormy: calls $2
----- FLOP ----- [ ]
wormy: checks
hansengus: checks
----- TURN ----- [ ][]
wormy: bets $3
hansengus: raises to $7
wormy: raises to $15
hansengus: raises to $25
wormy: raises to $33.75 and is all-in
hansengus: calls $8.75
----- RIVER ----- [ ][]
----- SHOW DOWN -----
wormy: shows [ ] (Three of a kind, Fives, King high)
hansengus: shows [ ] (Three of a kind, Kings, Jack high)
hansengus collects $71 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot $74 Main pot $71 Rake $3
Board [ ]
Seat 1: mikey88 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Tony30124 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: drengen22 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Jvedesous (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: wormy (big blind) showed [ ] and lost
Seat 6: hansengus showed [ ] and won ($71) with Three of a kind, Kings, Jack high

now whats bothering me is obviously i tried to trap him lol, but once i lead out on the turn and he raises when i RR and he 4 bets it i straight away think he has KK and i still carry on and push. what i want to know is once he has 4 bet it should i get away in a cash game or is this when you just go broke and reload.

thanks in advance for your help and opinions.

[totalise]

Dan,

go broke and reload. Theres not really much else to say. Hypothetically you could fold on the turn, but that would require a read with such precision you wouldn't need to post on a forum to get advice (because the decision would be trivially easy)

[GlasgowBandit]

Dan,

go broke and reload. Theres not really much else to say. Hypothetically you could fold on the turn, but that would require a read with such precision you wouldn't need to post on a forum to get advice (because the decision would be trivially easy)

I agree, these situations are terrible to be in, I think long term if you push with a set, not necesarilly the top set but any set you will be in front.  There is no limit to the times you will come up against a monkey with TPTK, 2 pair or a busted flush.

One of the things I suffer from when playing cash is putting someone on a set when I have one.  Even if I suspect they have a set when playing them I am liable to stick my dosh in just to see, but onthese occasions I try to keep the pot as small as possible.

[Enzyme_]

id have put a feeler bet in on the flop youve called his raise preflop so id expect some sorta action if u bet around 2-6$ then again depends on image and everyone wants to get paid with trips!

Plus ur first to act through out!

[MrSpeed]

I go broke here 100% of the time. You are playing short stacked so you should be looking to get your money in here.

Only if you deepstaked can you start worrying about set over set. Too many people never fold TPTK or AA here, plus he may just be going nuts with QQ.

Just stick the money in and hit the reload button.

MrSpeed

[Div]

I think generally you just need to go broke in that situation.

As an aside, does anyone have an idea what the odds are on two players at a nine or ten handed table both flopping sets?

[The_Diamond]

Stup playing above your bankroll, and don't buy into a table for half a buy in. You're not giving yourself a fair crack of the whip if you do that. Stick to buying in for the full whack at .10/.25 tables and when you beat those stakes consistently move up.

You're going to go broke with an underset everytime, but you both played the hand poorly. You should be asking yourself what on earth he has to raise preflop, check behind on a flop with no draw, then put in a series on mini-reraises. If he didn't want to bet the flop what's so special about the turn card. Since he's quite happy to 4 bet you there's really no other hand he could have but a set.

[Stone]

I relate to Dan's post strongly as I have an issue with cash games in that I want to play the higher stakes (where I think the play is better and probably more predictable), but I struggle on the .5/1 to reload $100 if I get outdrawn. I have come to the conclusion that reloading should be as natural as re-buying for another $5 in a cheap MTT if you have a reasonable bankroll. I have found that as soon as you buy in for below the min your loosing equity when you have the "Big Hand" and people need to pay! So whats right for me:

• Determine your poker motivation, for me building a bankroll to play in decent Live Tourneys
• Play at the levels with NLHE where I don't mind the automatic reload for me .25/.5
• Learn some other games where the opposition is softer, Omaha H/L or the Horse on Stars for me
• Try Limit, the variance is lower so you can play those higher stakes
• Find the best way to build the bank roll, be honest with my self keep meticulous records, analyse and choose my game carefully - I have been using the Hendon Mob "My Poker Diary" for last 3 months - STT's are my thing currently $20 buyin with nice ROI.

GL Dan.............

[The_Diamond]

• Try Limit, the variance is lower so you can play those higher stakes

This is a myth. Limit Holdem is much swingier than NLHE. At 5/10 I once made 2K in one day and lost 3K overall in the same week. On 2+2 there was a post recently from a guy who was a winning player (I think at 10/20) for nearly a year and then went on a 1200BB downswing!!

[Sheriff Fatman]

I agree, limit Hold'em is a much more volatile game in terms of swings.  Coping with the frequent downswings is one of the keys to playing it successfully as it can be soul destroying at times.

However, a 1200BB downswing is pretty extreme.  There's no way this can all be attributed to variance.  I've seen 500+BB swings reported by undoubted winning players but 1200BB is ridiculous.

Sheriff

[Pab]

go broke with your set in NL cash games unless really exceptional circumstances occur.

as the comment about wanting to play higher where the play is more predictable, i think you will find the opposite is true. The higher you go, the better players you get, and good players are not predictable especially in no limit cash from my experience. For people who are serious about wanting to get better at cash games, and i dont blame you as there is serious money to be made, i reccomend joining cardrunners. It may seem a little expensive but you get value for money. I have a friend that plays 0.5/1 and 1/2nl and he became a member and as allowed him to win consistently at these levels with a view to moving up. Taylor caby, one of the instructors is one of the best online cash players there is and ive seen a couple of his videos and his analysis is excellent. From what i saw most of the videos are made at low-medium stake games because thats where their members play.

Also, go read totalise's thread about NL cash im sure that will be a good start

Totalise- whats ure handle on full tilt btw