Pre and post flop conundrums

[TightEnd]

£3-3 blinds Live PLHE

Aggressive lairy game

You are UTG with  with £600. You've doubled up so far

Normally you'd raise, but it's PL and no single pot has been unraised in the last ninety minutes

You limp for £3 with a view to re-raising a loosey, or re-evaualating when it comes round to you pre flop, as it inevitably will

Aggresssive wealthy loose any two cards MP player raises to £15, playing £400

Aggressive but aware button flat calls, playing £400

Tightish solid SB re-raises the pot, £51. He is playing £700

It's £66 back to you

I decide to flat call putting SB on AK, any pair from 10-10 up. Happy to take off if no A or K on flop. Don't want to commit whole stack with QQ pre flop, possibly dominated

MP and button call for £51, so there's £270 in the pot

1. views on pre-flop play please


Flop

 

SB checks, which surprises you. I'd expect him to bet AA/KK there...feel he has AK now


2. It's up to you.. How much would you bet here? Would you check looking to check raise?


I bet the pot, committing in my mind to it. MP re-raises all in, I am priced into call for the £100 or so extra

remainder pass


Result immaterial, at the point the money goes in you are well ahead.

All thoughts welcome

[The_Diamond]

Looks like you played the hand very well. You can bet less than the pot on the flop if stacks are deeper put there's no proper bet that won't pot commit you should MP shove in. It's just unlucky if someone flopped a set but you cannot check the flop.

[boldie]

Looks like you played the hand very well. You can bet less than the pot on the flop if stacks are deeper put there's no proper bet that won't pot commit you should MP shove in. It's just unlucky if someone flopped a set but you cannot check the flop.

yeah I'd agree with that. I would like to think i would have played it exactly the same way....sorry Tighty..I can't find fault with it at all. In fact I think this is exactly the way Queens should be played in a cash PL game.

[Newmanseye]

Now I can see the argument for keeping the cost of playing your hand to a minimum preflop, yet this is a premium hand.

When the action is back to me in Tighty's position I'm re potting it to isolate, as loose as these players are, how many are calling another £270 preflop  given the stack sizes?

I know I would be raising to lose players, rag aces would pass in most circumstances here.

Then with the nice flop its time to take the pot.

[boldie]

Now I can see the argument for keeping the cost of playing your hand to a minimum preflop, yet this is a premium hand.

When the action is back to me in Tighty's position I'm re potting it to isolate, as loose as these players are, how many are calling another £270 preflop  given the stack sizes?

I know I would be raising to lose players, rag aces would pass in most circumstances here.

Then with the nice flop its time to take the pot.

ok you have £66 already in the pot pre-flop so that leaves you with 534. then you say you repop for another 270. which leaves you with 260. would you then fold to a raise on the flop? even when there's a K out as the only overcard? I would suggest that if you stick more then 50% of your stack in the middle you would feel commited as there would be a large amount in the pot (about 1k..maybe even more as the description of the BB suggests he doesn't mind a little gamble and could be in..let's suggest he also calls you)..so about £1250 in the pot..the only overcard out there is the K and you have position on both other players in the pot.

The only reason to keep the pot small (or atleast controlled) is so that you don't feel commited, repotting here is just about the worst thing you can do pre-flop with that many people in, given your stack size. (if you had say 1200 in front of you then i can see why you would)

[Raindogs]

I think you have to re-raise pre flop.  You have 2 opponents left to act and you have a perfect opportunity to get heads up with the SB raiser.  If you flat call the aggressive wealthy player only needs to put £36 more into a £152 pot.  If he calls the button is getting over 5/1 on his call. 

If you don't want to fully commit pre flop, a single re-raise of £51 may be enough to knock out the 2 players yet to act.  If the SB has AK he may opt to see the flop rather than get into a raising war with a limper who has suddenly shown strength.

On the flop after the SB checked the only hand I could see either of the 2 remaining players having that would be a problem is 77 for the set.  There is also the flush draw on the board so the SB may have AA or KK and be planning to check raise figuring that a set or 2 pair is unlikely.

Post flop it may end up being more profitable to check raise as you may get heads up with an opponent on a flush draw but you are not a huge favorite in that situation.  The other question would be, if you bet the pot will any of your opponents on a flush draw call despite not having the pot odds to do so.  If they would call a pot sized bet anyway the check raise would be a better option as you can then force them to play their draw for all their money (and yours).  If the SB has checked with AA/KK, hoping to check raise, they checking also gives you the opportunity to fold.

With £270 in the pot and a flush draw on the board I think I would end up potting.  A check raise here will not protect your hand because the re-raise will not be enough to get them to fold and any meaningful bet by one of the other players will commit them them to the pot. 

[Highstack]

Preflop is awful. If you are prepared to go broke here you should jam. By calling, you allow small pairs massive ev to try and flop a set against you. Push and get rid of them. If he has AA or KK unlucky - reload. The pot is enough to take uncontested. AK should pass and you have just one pair, so be happy with teh pot as it is.

[TightEnd]

Preflop is awful.

welcome back! 

I think my point is that I am wary of one of the few tight players re-popping it from the SB before me, and thus don't want to over-commit pre-flop and see the A or K drop

By merely flat calling I am increasing the chances of one of the MP/button players hitting a flop so the risk is higher, but once the SB checks post flop which surprises me I'm much more willing to commit to it

It is though an unconventionally, possibly incorrectly, played hand. Hence my post.

[TightEnd]

oh and re-raising pre flop doesn't isolate...the MP player especially will call with any two, and SB looks to have a monster


Keep pot small until the flop is at least outwardly favourable? no?

[Sheriff Fatman]

I don't mind the pre-flop play at all.  You're looking to isolate a LAG raiser but with all the action a call is the best play IMO.

Post-flop I don't bet the full pot unless you're prepared to follow it up with all your chips.  However, I'd expect the MP player to call/push with any draw (diamonds, a 6, or maybe even overcards).

One question, what would you have done if MP had folded and SB had pushed instead?  If the answer is fold then I think betting the pot on the flop is a mistake.  Otherwise I think you played it fine.

Sheriff

[TightEnd]

One question, what would you have done if MP had folded and SB had pushed instead?  If the answer is fold then I think betting the pot on the flop is a mistake.  Otherwise I think you played it fine.

once its a raggy flop I was prepared to go with it. I had decided this pre flop if not A or K on flop

[doubleup]

One question, what would you have done if MP had folded and SB had pushed instead?  If the answer is fold then I think betting the pot on the flop is a mistake.  Otherwise I think you played it fine.

Sheriff

I don't think an AA/KK in the hands of the player described would ever play this way with that flop.  I think they would either c-bet or check call.

[TightEnd]

I couldn't at the time, see AA/KK checking there on that flop


For the record, he had AQ off.

[doubleup]

One question, what would you have done if MP had folded and SB had pushed instead?  If the answer is fold then I think betting the pot on the flop is a mistake.  Otherwise I think you played it fine.

once its a raggy flop I was prepared to go with it. I had decided this pre flop if not A or K on flop

I agree with your general strategy for QQ vs fairly tight player, but the other callers confuse matters a bit.  If any two will call all-in I think you do want to reraise pre-flop.  this adds huge value to both you and the tight player in the SB.

[totalise]

oh and re-raising pre flop doesn't isolate...the MP player especially will call with any two, and SB looks to have a monster

if this is the case, and you have already decided preflop that you are gonna get stacked if SB has AA/KK.. (ie go to war on a non a/k flop) repotting it preflop is prob the best play.