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Author Topic: Inflection Points Mark 2  (Read 7787 times)
Royal Flush
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« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2007, 07:10:07 PM »

Yes i agree it is not the preferred situation, but once you are short you don't get out of it by folding +EV situations, passing up on juicy +EV situations is for big stacks, not small stacks.

Thanks for the lesson on tournament poker though, i might have a go at one tonight!
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Jim-D
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« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2007, 07:11:08 PM »



Thanks for the lesson on tournament poker though, i might have a go at one tonight!

 
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Highstack
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« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2007, 07:35:45 PM »

Easy to ridicule when you run out of answers. You might be good at tournamnets,  but if you think you are too good to stop learning then you have serious problems.
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« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2007, 09:02:42 PM »

Easy to ridicule when you run out of answers. You might be good at tournamnets,  but if you think you are too good to stop learning then you have serious problems.

I have explained as best i can as to why the call is massive +EV, i can do no more!
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Jim-D
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« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2007, 09:06:05 PM »

Easy to ridicule when you run out of answers. You might be good at tournamnets,  but if you think you are too good to stop learning then you have serious problems.

I have explained as best i can as to why the call is massive +EV, i can do no more!

Write an atricle on it?
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bhoywonder
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« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2007, 10:34:46 AM »

I do love it when all arguments are backed up with statistical +ev in tournament play. How many time shave you ever won from the rail? Tournaments are about so much more than whether it is a +ev call and if possible can go very deep without ever being forced into a race situation. If you like going all in regularly so that you can say well I was unlucky to go out as I was the favourite .... then that is what will happen. If you are fortunate enough to be all in 3 times as an 80/20 fav with overpair v underpair then you are pretty much a coinflip to still be alive. A gradual increase on stack and getting the chips in first is a far better way of accumulating a stack.

+ev calls for cash everytime. In tournaments they are overated.



interesting


Does this explain why i have been railed during my last 2 live tourneys holding AKos twice ( both times around the bubble )

last time my all in vig being called by KQs (having a stack a little bigger than mine )


I thought i was just unlucky,this is making me rethink my strategy
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« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2007, 10:48:43 AM »

I do love it when all arguments are backed up with statistical +ev in tournament play. How many time shave you ever won from the rail? Tournaments are about so much more than whether it is a +ev call and if possible can go very deep without ever being forced into a race situation. If you like going all in regularly so that you can say well I was unlucky to go out as I was the favourite .... then that is what will happen. If you are fortunate enough to be all in 3 times as an 80/20 fav with overpair v underpair then you are pretty much a coinflip to still be alive. A gradual increase on stack and getting the chips in first is a far better way of accumulating a stack.

+ev calls for cash everytime. In tournaments they are overated.



interesting


Does this explain why i have been railed during my last 2 live tourneys holding AKos twice ( both times around the bubble )

last time my all in vig being called by KQs (having a stack a little bigger than mine )


I thought i was just unlucky,this is making me rethink my strategy


Well in tourneys you have to avoid racing as much as possible IMO. Highstack is of course right when he says that you will lose one out of every 5 races in which you are an 80% fav to win it. Also ussually there is no need for it either (and more often then not you are not in 5 races where you are an 80% favourite to win it but probably 2 or 3 of those a 60-40 up against two live cards)
Whereever possible you should avoid a race in my opinion. If you have to go all inmore then 3 times in a tourney when you are raising you are doing something wrong. Sure you can win the tourney if you win all those races or the chips you can accumulate can atleast set you up to win it. But if you have all your chips in the middle more then 3 times before getting to the final table (assuming you haven't been a shortstack all through the tourney and didn't desperately need to accumulate chips) you most likely will not be making the final table let alone win the tourney.

The only excuses for getting all your chips in the middle SHOULD actually be;

A; I was  low on chips and needed to double/tripple up and this was the best time to do it, I just needed a bit of luck.

B; If I won this hand I would have been in a great position to take the tourney.


People too often say "Well, I'm a 60-40 favourite so 6 out of ten times I should win this race therefore it's a good call"
This is simply not true and too often you hear players who have been knocked out after being the 60-40 favourite twice and then lost one complain that "But I'm a 60-40 favourite I should have won that hand"
If your tourney could be on the line and there is no need for you to get involved in a 60-40 race and no major benefitto you winning the pot it's a fold IMO.

This is all before final table play .
On the bubble it's just madness to get involved in 60-40 races unless you are shortstacked/ are in a great position to win the tourney if you win that pot.


Just my opinion of course.


edit * before some smart arse says "even if you go all-in with aces you are still racing"..that is of course not what I mean.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 10:52:53 AM by boldie » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2007, 11:00:15 AM »

Good post.

I would also add that I don't mind racing, even as a small dog occasionally, but I prefer to be not only in first, but doing without all my chips for sale, by racing against stacks that are vastly inferior to mine.
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bhoywonder
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« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2007, 11:00:47 AM »

ok mr boldie


been mulling this one over in my head since last weekend  lol


opinion highly sought

i like ur advice btw


so its 4 handed 18 started pays on 2..i have around 36k in BB,cutoff (CL) has around 100k,button has 50k and SB has 40k

blinds 1 and 2k,so im low man....


i get dealt AKos ,cl folds,button calls sb raises 7k..so its 6k for me to call......but i push all in


now although being the low stack i was pushing it agressively,openly bluffing..the sb is obviously new to live and is agressive,after seeing to much wpt final table coverage methinks...


anyways he dwells,and i kind of give him uncomfortable body language ( i want the call ),,he does call with KQ!!!!!

and im railed after the Queen hits the flop


how bad did i play it,how else could i have played it considering my dwindling stack??
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« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2007, 11:24:41 AM »

Nothing wrong there Bhoy at all. You were not only in front, but you pushed and didn't call. His play was shocking and you were just unlucky.
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boldie
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« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2007, 11:25:37 AM »

ok mr boldie


been mulling this one over in my head since last weekend  lol


opinion highly sought

i like ur advice btw


so its 4 handed 18 started pays on 2..i have around 36k in BB,cutoff (CL) has around 100k,button has 50k and SB has 40k

blinds 1 and 2k,so im low man....


i get dealt AKos ,cl folds,button calls sb raises 7k..so its 6k for me to call......but i push all in


now although being the low stack i was pushing it agressively,openly bluffing..the sb is obviously new to live and is agressive,after seeing to much wpt final table coverage methinks...


anyways he dwells,and i kind of give him uncomfortable body language ( i want the call ),,he does call with KQ!!!!!

and im railed after the Queen hits the flop


how bad did i play it,how else could i have played it considering my dwindling stack??

I wouldn't pass my AK in this situation. I too would have pushed with it (maybe flat call push the flop no matter what..but my chips are in unless I know something about the SB) And I'm fine with you pushing here.
 
Actually dissapointed by the guy calling you. It's exactly the sort of call there's no need for in my opinion and it's what I was mainly talking about in my previous post. Yes he would have been down to 32k himself but pick up a few blinds and he would have been fine.
If someone acts like they don't want a call (like you did) they ussually actually scream "BIG SLICK!" or "MASSIVE HAND!!" so unless you are a great actor  in these situations he could have known better.

I however would probably not want a call in this situation (if I don't know I have him dominated..if i know he has KQ I want him to call obviously). He could have 10-J and you find yourself a 60-40 shot. I am ussually more then happy picking up the extra 7k in the pot.

However, as only top two got paid and you essentially need to double up, pushing here is the right thing to do and getting the call is great in this case. Yes you got unlucky but there was nothing much you can do about that in this situation. You needed 60k to have a shot at winning the tourney and, untill the flop came, were in a great position to get that.


The situation I was referring to more would be the following (made up example so don't read the situation too literally)


Top 5 get paid, you are on the final table with 8 Players left and you are on the button.

CL on the table with 50k average 30k, you have 35K Blinds are 500-1000. A shortstack (less then 9K) pushes all the chippies in before betting comes to you (you have seen him slowly go nuts over not finding anything so any two face cards or even small pair he could push with), one other guy (26K) pushes his chips in too in a re-raise. This guy has been LAG.

SB and BB look ready to fold (and you have a good read on them so assume they will)

Why would you call here with AK or middle pocket pair?

I have seen soo many people do this it frightens me. The extra 34k would indeed make you CL but there's plenty of play left for you anyways so not really a need for it as the CL only has 16k more in chips then you at the moment.
This is exactly the sort of situation that you should avoid in my opinion.

I know this doesn't relate to your specific situation as you mentioned above and in your situation you made the right play but generally speaking in a tournament people should really avoid getting most (if not all)  of their chips in the middle with a hand like AK unless they have a good reason to (and like I said before there should really only be two of those reasons) Especially calling with AK (and I am with highstack on this one) is not something I like to do.
Being the agressor is fine (like you were) flat calling is not ideal with it.





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bhoywonder
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« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2007, 11:43:10 AM »

thx for the responses high stack and boldie


im gonna seriously consider wot u said in my upcoming home game this weekend

when the enivitable situation arrives
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« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2007, 11:47:25 AM »

thx for the responses high stack and boldie


im gonna seriously consider wot u said in my upcoming home game this weekend

when the enivitable situation arrives

I seriously doubt your play of AK is the thing that costs you. How would you have played 56s or 72o in this spot? That is what is more important to making you into a better player.
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« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2007, 11:51:04 AM »

thx for the responses high stack and boldie


im gonna seriously consider wot u said in my upcoming home game this weekend

when the enivitable situation arrives

I seriously doubt your play of AK is the thing that costs you. How would you have played 56s or 72o in this spot? That is what is more important to making you into a better player.

excellent question.

56 sooted depending on the sort of player SB is (obviously) can be a pushing hand. actaully depending on the sort of player the SB is any hand can be a pushing hand. If you think he's weak and can lay a hand down you should push with any two cards in this situation so that you pick up the extra 7k IMO.
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« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2007, 11:52:56 AM »

thx for the responses high stack and boldie


im gonna seriously consider wot u said in my upcoming home game this weekend

when the enivitable situation arrives

I seriously doubt your play of AK is the thing that costs you. How would you have played 56s or 72o in this spot? That is what is more important to making you into a better player.

It would depend what you knew of teh KQ villain. He sounds like a complete station, which is unfortunate, because with how he described the hand, then I might be tempted to push with 65 or 72 also! In fact if I knew he had KQ, I would definitely jam with both of those hands as he shouldn't be calling! The button limp at that stage, would have been more of a worry Smiley
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