Irish Poker Championships: Day 1 - Interactive

[snoopy1239]

Followed by John Keown with 53,150.

[doubleup]

David 'doubleup' McGreachie is OUT.

He didn't look best pleased so I decided not to pursue.

lol

I was gasping for a ciggy.

[ollyk1]

You're worried about him flatcalling with his Aces or Kings and playing them flawlessly, but I would have thought he'd get the chips anyhow on the Flop with a check-raise if Red just called.

Forget about the BB's holding for a second.

The action went raise by REd-Dog, rerasie by BB and then rereraise by REd-Dog after which the BB let's REd-dog of the hook by shoving all-in.

What I'm saying is REd-dog should have smooth called the BB's reraise and assesed on the flop.

Say it comes low and raggy and the BB bets out. Then Red can either call or fold (the hand has still cost him less then it actually did). If the guy fires another bullet on the turn then Red should have a good idea by this where he stands and it hasn't cost him any more chips.

Plus he got to see 4 cards and a chance to  hit a queen plus in the event his opponent has an underpair to the QQ, REd-Dog is sometimes getting money in good against an opponent in very bad shape. By rereraising this is not the case and the opponent gets off hands we beat for the minmum cost. Not good long term poker imho. 

I agree that he should have called with his Aces, but I'm still unconvinced that RED should smooth call with his Queens because (1) He gives a weaker hand the chance to outdraw him (2) Play could freeze if an overcard hits the flop and (3) He gives Mateyboy an opportunity to bluff him off the hand.

I'm happy to take it down pre-flop if I have him beat and escape if I don't. Seeing the flop could be an expensive way of finding out the information you need, and even then it won't be as reliable as the information gathered from a pre-flop re-re-raise.

Interesting 1. I'm not 100% either way.

Yeah its a hand worth a bit of discussion for sure. One more argument for the smooth call before I head to bed. This is a pretty decent structured tournament and there is still quite a bit of play so its pretty close to a cash game at this stage. How often do you rereraise in a cash game in this spot to "find out where you are"? You are playing deep enough that in general you wouldn't and the reason you wouldn't is because you'd trust yourself to play the later streets better than your opponent (don't forget you do have position) and in a cash game you don't care about getting knocked out you just play the best long run poker.

Given the stage of the tournie and the long distance to go before the money I'd suggest this hand should have played out the same as a cash game, i think you are letting the fact its a decent buyin tournie and a natural (but incorrect ) conservatism cloud your judgement here.

The other thing is by playng it smaller if scare cards come it may slow both players down and you have a hand that doesn't mind a showdown in general.

Anyway good debating with you all. I'll be back to follow the action tomorrow.

GL to all blondies left.

[snoopy1239]

And finally Noel Mannion who just eliminated a player with Q-Q vs 6-4 suited on a harmles J-8-T-3-7 board. Noel is now on 24,100.

[Djinn]

Wow you're really into debating this RED hand, huh... well OK, I join in briefly:

In your assessment of flat calling the re-raise, one small part of your hypothetical next step makes all the difference - this line:  "Say it comes low and raggy and the BB bets out."  This is a crucial assumption in then considering that he could have a) saved chips or b) gotten paid when in a very good situation for his Queens i.e. against a weaker pair.  Also, calling or folding aren't the only options, and if you call and then opt to fold the turn, as you suggest is a possibility, you will have probably 'wasted' an equal number of chips to those RED actually threw at this pot.

If you remove this assumption (the flop coming low and raggy) the goodness of this play drains away a bit.  Somone who is aggressive or has a bad case of re-raise-from-the-blinditis will like the flat call with 'real' hands like QQ, as HE is now the one who can autobet the high flop and get rid of you, or pass to a sturdy raise if you like what you see.  Sure, he's out of position, with less of an idea what you're holding - that's a good thing for RED.  But if someone is as likely to raise from the blinds into a late-position raiser with KQs, 88, AA or AJ, you're learning nothing until you risk more on the flop anyway.  Then the underpair can get away, or the winning hand push all in then, which you hate, and depending on the stacks, might find yourself committed to calling.

[Djinn]

Oh, and I agree that seriously deep, small blind stuff is a different story.  RED put about a third of his chips in here, and at no point were the raises ludicrous in proportion to the blinds.

[action man]

imo red-dog played it absolutely spot on, i would do EXACTLY the same, he found out where he was, i think the villain should have put red on QQ KK or AA and taken a flop if the flop comes J high its game over for tom.  But it is easier to flat call the third bet from here than it would have been in the villains seat. I am guilty of 4-betting aces thinking that the guy couldnt possibly fold. imo RED played it well and got away cheaply

[Royal Flush]

I'm assuming everyone would have folded Queens?

 

[ollyk1]

Wow you're really into debating this RED hand, huh... well OK, I join in briefly:

In your assessment of flat calling the re-raise, one small part of your hypothetical next step makes all the difference - this line:  "Say it comes low and raggy and the BB bets out."  This is a crucial assumption in then considering that he could have a) saved chips or b) gotten paid when in a very good situation for his Queens i.e. against a weaker pair.  Also, calling or folding aren't the only options, and if you call and then opt to fold the turn, as you suggest is a possibility, you will have probably 'wasted' an equal number of chips to those RED actually threw at this pot.

If you remove this assumption (the flop coming low and raggy) the goodness of this play drains away a bit.  Somone who is aggressive or has a bad case of re-raise-from-the-blinditis will like the flat call with 'real' hands like QQ, as HE is now the one who can autobet the high flop and get rid of you, or pass to a sturdy raise if you like what you see.  Sure, he's out of position, with less of an idea what you're holding - that's a good thing for RED.  But if someone is as likely to raise from the blinds into a late-position raiser with KQs, 88, AA or AJ, you're learning nothing until you risk more on the flop anyway.  Then the underpair can get away, or the winning hand push all in then, which you hate, and depending on the stacks, might find yourself committed to calling.

I didn't say the smooth call would make our life easy and we are going to have  some tricky decisions. But isn't that the point? If you watch the really good players they

a) don't define their hands to their opponents and
b) make the tough decisions better/Read their opponents better.

If the game was easy what would be the point? Tournament poker at this stage is about more than preflop decisions and you have to embrace that if you want to really go far in the game I feel. At the later stages sure it becomes a little simpler and the imporatnce of picking your spots preflop increases but this isn't the case here is what I'm suggesting.

P.S. While I talked about low and raggy flops I didn't mention Queen high flops either now did I??? Only messing.

Nice chatting with you all. I have to work tomorrow so its a goodnight from me. 

[snoopy1239]

Antes Up have reliably (cough) informed us that Roy Brindley is OUT.

'Muppet move' according to their source.

I shall stay on the fence.

[RED-DOG]

I'm assuming everyone would have folded Queens?

 

 

[snoopy1239]

I'm assuming everyone would have folded Queens?

 

  muppet

[snoopy1239]

Wow you're really into debating this RED hand, huh... well OK, I join in briefly:

In your assessment of flat calling the re-raise, one small part of your hypothetical next step makes all the difference - this line:  "Say it comes low and raggy and the BB bets out."  This is a crucial assumption in then considering that he could have a) saved chips or b) gotten paid when in a very good situation for his Queens i.e. against a weaker pair.  Also, calling or folding aren't the only options, and if you call and then opt to fold the turn, as you suggest is a possibility, you will have probably 'wasted' an equal number of chips to those RED actually threw at this pot.

If you remove this assumption (the flop coming low and raggy) the goodness of this play drains away a bit.  Somone who is aggressive or has a bad case of re-raise-from-the-blinditis will like the flat call with 'real' hands like QQ, as HE is now the one who can autobet the high flop and get rid of you, or pass to a sturdy raise if you like what you see.  Sure, he's out of position, with less of an idea what you're holding - that's a good thing for RED.  But if someone is as likely to raise from the blinds into a late-position raiser with KQs, 88, AA or AJ, you're learning nothing until you risk more on the flop anyway.  Then the underpair can get away, or the winning hand push all in then, which you hate, and depending on the stacks, might find yourself committed to calling.

I didn't say the smooth call would make our life easy and we are going to have  some tricky decisions. But isn't that the point? If you watch the really good players they

a) don't define their hands to their opponents and
b) make the tough decisions better/Read their opponents better.

If the game was easy what would be the point? Tournament poker at this stage is about more than preflop decisions and you have to embrace that if you want to really go far in the game I feel. At the later stages sure it becomes a little simpler and the imporatnce of picking your spots preflop increases but this isn't the case here is what I'm suggesting.

P.S. While I talked about low and raggy flops I didn't mention Queen high flops either now did I??? Only messing.

Nice chatting with you all. I have to work tomorrow so its a goodnight from me. 

Nice talking to you. 

"Come again"

[action man]

"please call again"c'mon snoops i had you down as a friends<simpsons man

[snoopy1239]

Christie Smith (a local legend, I'm told) has bitten the dust.