raise or call?

[byronkincaid]

Let's say you have just sat down at a 2/5 table and someone you've never played before raises to 20 and you call in position with AJ. You both have 100BB stacks. Flop comes down J 8 2 rainbow and villain C-bets 35. Do you raise or call?

It seems to make the hand easier if you raise. If villain 3-bets then we are prob beat so we can fold. If he folds then fine we've won a small pot with TPTK which you're prob not gonna win a large pot with anyway. If he calls then he's prob checking the turn so we can check behind and keep the pot small or maybe bet if another blank card comes.

However if we raise then we are not getting a better hand to fold only a worse hand. This doesn't seem to make much sense. we want worse hands to stick around so we win more money right? But this makes the hand harder to play. What if a Q or a K comes on the turn and he bets? maybe he had AK or AQ and hit his hand? Even if a couple of cards that look like blanks come down what if he pushes the river? TPTK is not usually a hand we wanna play for stacks with.

So it seems like the best way to play the hand is the more difficult of the two.

How does this situation change if we are out of position or if the flop is more coordinated. Does it make more sense to raise or call then?

[SupaMonkey]

I position i would call his flop bet and then bet/raise his turn bet. If he pushes the river after my turn raise then we are beat.

OOP i would lead into him. I may bet-check-bet on an uncoordinated board but i fire two barrels on a coordinated board and then check-call the end.

[Smart Money]

Fold pre-flop full-handed.

[byronkincaid]

I don't play full handed although thinking about it, it may cure my insomnia.

It's more the concept I'm interested in. A lot of people say "yea raise to find out where you are" and a lot of people say "well durr, you're only gonna get worse hands to fold"

[byronkincaid]

I position i would call his flop bet and then bet/raise his turn bet. If he pushes the river after my turn raise then we are beat.

OOP i would lead into him. I may bet-check-bet on an uncoordinated board but i fire two barrels on a coordinated board and then check-call the end.

This makes a lot of sense SupaMonks, thank you. I have a question though - When you lead OOP what do you do if you get raised? You have a good hand but is it good enough to stand that sort of pressure? If TPTK generally is, what about if you had KJ or QJ?

[Smart Money]

If I found myself in this postion against an unknown opponent then I would just call on the flop given the relatively large flop bet (3/4 pot.) Most pre-flop raisers are going to put in their continuation bet of course regardless of the flop. Likewise most will not bet the turn with just Ace high.

If he checks the turn, then I'd bet around $40 into the $117 pot. If he calls then I'd check behind him on the river.

If he bets big on the turn, then I'd fold.

If he puts in a relatively small turn bet, then I'd min raise and check behind him on the river. This is cheaper than calling the turn, then calling the river bet plus it charges him if he is playing to 3 outs with his AK or AQ, or 2 outs if he has a mid-pair. (If he re-raises the turn then it'd be an easy fold.)

[byronkincaid]

then I'd bet around $40 into the $117 pot

Wow, don't think i've ever bet so small into a pot. Makes sense for pot control tho.

Something else to think about!

thank you

[byronkincaid]

Very good player Tayler Caby say raise for info W00T

well what if you flop top pair against a solid TAG opponent who can at times fire a few barrels, but isnt crazily tricky and knows you are a solid player.

lets say you just called preflop on the button with 77, after he raised MP. the flop comes down 2 2 5 rainbow - he bets 2/3 of the pot. You have a hand that you cant just fold right here, but calling can be wrong against this type of player. if he isnt overly tricky, why not just raise him 3X (even 2.5 or 2. and see what he does. if he respects you and has nothing, hes folding most of the time. Yeah, your hand is probably a bluff if he calls, but now you know that and dont have to call any more bets, or deal with the chance of his 2 overs getting there on the turn.

your raise here is completely valid in my opinion and is for information purposes as well as for value of your hand. this might be too simple of an example but it would apply also if you had 44 or A5 or something (not sure i would advocate that call preflop but you get the point).

Stinger88 (won over a million $ this year) played the hand in the OP says raising for info BAD. B00


Me confused.

[SupaMonkey]

I position i would call his flop bet and then bet/raise his turn bet. If he pushes the river after my turn raise then we are beat.

OOP i would lead into him. I may bet-check-bet on an uncoordinated board but i fire two barrels on a coordinated board and then check-call the end.

This makes a lot of sense SupaMonks, thank you. I have a question though - When you lead OOP what do you do if you get raised? You have a good hand but is it good enough to stand that sort of pressure? If TPTK generally is, what about if you had KJ or QJ?

Ok, i'm not a cash player so i have little to no experience of playing with 100BB's. If it was a HU match and this happened i would just shove because (especially on tribeca) you'll get donks not believing you and calling with all kinds of crap (but you only start with 50BB's). I think with a bigger stack the best play would be to check call the turn and lead the river. If he is bluffing he is likely to continue with it on the turn (i.e. he thinks you are CBetting the flop and thinks you are weak when you check the turn to him). Tbh, i'm not sure how much to bet on the end. Sometimes a small bet is good because some oppo's will call with weaker hands but other oppo's will make a big bluff raise. I not sure what other people think, they may have completely different opinions.

[boldie]

Am I missing something?

Let's say you have just sat down at a 2/5 table and someone you've never played before raises to 20 and you call in position with AJ. You both have 100BB stacks. Flop comes down J 8 2 rainbow and villain C-bets 35. Do you raise or call?

Why would you call a raise preflop with AJ and then  not raise if it hits? The guy could have raised with any two cards pre-flop. Now you hit top pair top kicker and with AJ that's pretty much what you're going for (As you don't know whether the guy had AQ/AK) . If you take the guy for a hand (afterall you have to give him credit if you don't know anything about him) you have to raise here because any Q or K will scare you off and you still don't know what hand he has.

I take it you were the only two in this pot? If so the pot is now 47+35= 82$ I'll take 16BB anytime with AJ.
I reraise here. Not just to find out if I'm beat but to take the pot here and now if I'm not. I don't want to be giving out cards here.

[totalise]

I'd just fold preflop, even 6 max

As for flop, I'd call flop, if he checks, betting is OK, I kinda like checking sometimes as well, it controls pot, it lets you snap off river bluffs, and it gives you more chance of getting called by worse, because I find that often people are scared of calling turn bets because they are worried about facing another bet on the river, and they expect you to bet made hands on the turn to "protect" your holding, which lets you rep weakness a lot better. True, you give a free card for them to outdraw you, but if they are behind, they wont have many cards that help them.

I think what Tay meant is that you derive information from your raise, amongst other things, rather then explicitly raising to get information


The above also reminded me that its a pretty good idea to occasionally bet rivers even if you are pretty sure you wont get called by worse/fold out better, because of the leverage it gives you on the turn, lets you take control of a lot of the dead money in the pot, the implied threat of river bets makes people wilt under pressure. Turn play is king

[byronkincaid]

thx T