Thread from another forum

Ok sorry guys and gals ... its a long one ... butif you have 10 mins to spare so that you can read this.....

This is a thread from a different forum. It looks like I am on my own fighting this corner. I just wondered what the good folks over here thought and whether I can drum up any support or if you agree with what seems like everyone else? (pls ignore some of the jokey stuff in the middle, I havn't bothered to edit it)

Jazzy Jon 08 Jan 09:21

Playing the snowball last night $50k prizepool, 7 left prizes as follows

$12k, $7k, $4.5k, $3.25k, $2,650, $2,150, $1,650

blinds are at 10k/20k you have 500k, average stack is around 350k and you're in 2nd place. You've been re raising all in a fair bit pre flop but have always had the goods, but haven't shown it,

UTG makes it 55k, he's playing 470k and you perceive him as loose aggressive, you have JJ, whats your move?

I'm sure many of you know what happened already but please don't let that influence what you would do?



  THE CELTIC HOTSPUR 08 Jan 09:25

All-in



  Zelda 08 Jan 09:30

Flat call for me... No need to be hasty imo...



  Keith A 08 Jan 09:31

All in, what happened?



  New stack 08 Jan 09:31

Assuming that you are acting after him, take a flop (I havn't seen game btw, so not influenced). You won't have sat in this for x number of hours to go broke here pre-flop with JJ.

Its a large chunk of chips but you ca still let go and pick up 30k in blinds by open raising your next chance with atc. JJ is not enough to go broke here.

What happened?



  Zelda 08 Jan 09:32

Blinds are 20k? You not even call H?



  New stack 08 Jan 09:33

New stack 08 Jan 09:31
..... take a flop

Dizzy mare



  Zelda 08 Jan 09:36

Doh

Wanna slap? Grrrrrr



  New stack 08 Jan 09:38

Yes please



  Jazzy Jon 08 Jan 09:42

ok, say you do take a flop and it comes Ten high, what do you do when he fires at it?

I won't say what happened just yet



  New stack 08 Jan 09:47

How much has he bet?



  Jazzy Jon 08 Jan 09:49

ok, well I went all in pre flop and he called with AA, I'm guessing he'd probably bet around 150k on that flop so what do you do now?



  Zelda 08 Jan 10:01

I put him on a higher pp pre - Im just getting a cheap enough flop and hoping to hit a set. J's are an easy lay down... (hurts when you see one fall on the river tho )



  New stack 08 Jan 10:11

150 is a pass. If he is doing it with AT then all power to him because he simply can't win the tournament.

150k is not 150k in reality. There are two streets to come, so you can't really call and hope to see the hand out, without putting in the balance of your stack.

If he bet around 80k (possible continuation) you could take the turn too. He is unlikely to fire a third bullet here if he just has AK.



  Random Online Tournament Donk 08 Jan 10:59

Going broke here is fine.



  Arnold_D 08 Jan 11:31

Jon,

I watched the final table and our Scandi friend was using his large stack reasonably well.

When he fired the bet out, I never put him on AA. If I was holding the JJ im all in without a shadow of a doubt.

Just unlicky you ran into them mate.

You did well with your stack.

WP mate



  stu 08 Jan 11:54

Just saw this thread, coincidentally just started one saying how my pet hate starting hand is JJ. Always find it difficult to play.



  Warren Moon, Bomb! TOUCHDOWN!! 08 Jan 12:57

Just out of interest, which position were you to act in, Jon?



  Stallion1873 08 Jan 12:57

I do anything other than raise 0% of the time here.

Would love to know how anyone can put him on a higher pp?!?!

As ROTD says nothing wrong with going broke here.



  Stallion1873 08 Jan 13:02

With 20odd BB's in front of me I need a BIG reason not to get my chips in. A std raise UTG is not one of them



  Jazzy Jon 08 Jan 13:56

I was mid position btw



  New stack 08 Jan 14:20

A big reason is surely that you only have JJ and if you lose the hand, you still have above average chips?

I faced a similar situation at the forum game last September. I was in LP and Doobs raised in EP from 4k to 10k which was standard, but he had shown nothing out of line and I took a flop with him. We were both playing around 90k so relative stack sizes to JJ's problem.

The flop came 9 high rainbow and Doobs led for 35k, now I knew that the bet wasn't really 35k it was my whole stack with 2 streets to come, so I had to assess where I was. I thought what am I really beating here? Imo the chances that I was or still am in front was probably 20-25% at best and I passed.

I passed face-up and to my delight, he showed QQ (personally I would have mucked and said TT ) You could argue that I was not playing to win, but that would be untrue, I still had an above average stack and I believed a decent chance of success, with who was left in the field.

As I see it, this is just the same here, take aflop and see the action in front of you, then re-assess.

(In addition, I jammed pre with them later in the same tourn and also ran into AA who hadn't yet acted, but my blind to stack ratio was much lower by then).



  Zelda 08 Jan 14:23

Its a gift Bazza



  SHAABOOM 08 Jan 14:31

I Jam............. ah well sh1t happens.....



  New stack 08 Jan 14:32

Bob Marley Boomer?



  Zelda 08 Jan 14:33

Do you boom shaa?



  New stack 08 Jan 14:34

boom shaa shaa ... shaa the room ...tic tic tic tic BOOM!



  SHAABOOM 08 Jan 14:36

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM

Sh1t happens



  fishpoo 08 Jan 14:39

Yes, going broke here is fine, but ffs go broke pre, dont just call, see a 9 high flop then stick the lot in and hope hes got AK, AQ.

How does this question sound?

Playing the snowball last night $50k prizepool, 7 left prizes as follows

$12k, $7k, $4.5k, $3.25k, $2,650, $2,150, $1,650

blinds are at 10k/20k you have 500k, average stack is around 350k and you're in 2nd place. You've been re raising all in a fair bit pre flop but have always had the goods, but haven't shown it,

UTG makes it 55k, he's playing 470k and you perceive him as loose aggressive, you have 22, whats your move?



  Stallion1873 08 Jan 14:42

Zelda 08 Jan 14:23

Its a gift Bazza

LOL Zelds I was sat there for 5mins thinking wtf is she on about. Then I twigged. I'm getting slower



  New stack 08 Jan 14:42

FP that is different and is a std pass imo.

Implied odds (7.5/1 to hit) mean you need around 10/1 to hit a set, but in this situation they are out of the equation and 22 is a preflop pass.



  Jazzy Jon 08 Jan 14:45

fishpoo, in that situation I call and fold if no 2 on flop. Maybe I shoulda played the jacks that way, I dunno, didnt think I thought it all through in tme, just jammed.



  Zelda 08 Jan 14:46

LOL - Big Slick weekend 26th Baz?



  New stack 08 Jan 14:47

Why you calling with 22 Jazzy? You can't put 55k just hoping to hit a flop. If you think he has AK jam, if you think he has overpair pass (even with implied he needs overpair above flop and you still might not get paid). He is LAG what you doing on a 963 flop? You are chucking 55k away there by calling 22.



  New stack 08 Jan 14:48

* jam not only if you think he has AK but only if he can pass AK.



  New stack 08 Jan 14:52

Small pairs should be played as follows in tournaments:

Early on, see as many cheap flops as you are allowed and play to hit sets

Middle to late, occasional cheap if in LP, pass in ep - too much to throw away if raised behind and you don't want to get pot stuck pre.

Late on pass or jam only (particularly when table not full handed) and not if pot already raised ahead of you.



  Jazzy Jon 08 Jan 14:54

I call witrh the 22 cos i know if i hit the 2 i get all his chips, if i dont i pass. easy hand to play imo



  DanseMacabre 08 Jan 14:55

New stack 08 Jan 14:20

I passed face-up and to my delight, he showed QQ (personally I would have mucked and said TT ) You could argue that I was not playing to win, but that would be untrue, I still had an above average stack and I believed a decent chance of success,
with who was left in the field.

I was probably at the bar by then else I may have taken offence



  New stack 08 Jan 14:56

You can't afford to put 55k out there and throw it away. How do you know you get all his chips? The implied odds are only there if he has AA KK and at this stage there are easier ways to accumulate a stack.



  Farrer 08 Jan 14:56

I'm not passing AK to a resteal, especially when Jazzy had jammed many times during the previous 30 minutes whether he had hands or not it looked suspect. He played the hand fine, you CAN'T flat call as you have no idea where you stand, and the stacks were nearer 450k each so raising 120-150 is marginal (AA NEVER jams here and will trap call), and even then it's going in on a ragged flop if AA trap checks, and JJ has to bet 1/2 pot he is then committed.

He was going broke whichever way on the hand, no way he could have gotten away from it.



  Stallion1873 08 Jan 14:57

Possibly Zeld, I'll need to check my diary



  Jazzy Jon 08 Jan 15:00

Stack, you may be right on this one. in these circumatsances i will probably just bin 22



  fishpoo 08 Jan 15:07

of course u should pass 22,
but i was only asking that as i feel that calling pre with Jacks is disasterous, and if your passing if no set, then you may as well call with 22.
2nd in chips, You could pass here pre but this would have to happen if this buyin is bigger than usual, and moving up the money is most important.
If your playing jacks here then you must raise, whether pushing or making it 135k to go is correct, (then maybe pass to rererererererererereraise pre) these options are better than flat calling.
Playing this comp everyday then raise is correct play, if however this is a one off and just want as big a cash as possible then passing is.



  New stack 08 Jan 15:09

F; why can he not flat call the 55k and take a flop? Pls convince me. I agree a standard raise is out, but he has position. No shame in calling here.



  New stack 08 Jan 15:09

* F was Farrer not fishpoo btw



  SHAABOOM 08 Jan 15:09

iM ALLIN



  SHAABOOM 08 Jan 15:10

I PASS



  New stack 08 Jan 15:10

You're not necessarily passing if no set Jody. You can take the flop and reassess post -flop.



  Jazzy Jon 08 Jan 15:12

What do you do on the flop though stack?

He fires and you still have no clue where you are

He checks again you have no clue so you bet and then get raised or flat called and by now you're getting yourself committed

Calling pre flop is imo the worth option



  New stack 08 Jan 15:15

I disagree. It depends how much he fires and whether you think its a continuation or getting you pot-stuck.

I said above, 80k continuation call again ... you still only done the 135k that you see above mentioned and you are now at the turn. If he fires again at the turn, you are probably beat. AK will probably not fire the third bullet here as out of position and has no idea where he is.

If he leads out for 150k+ on the flop, then depending what you know of him, its an easier pass or jam.



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Stallion1873 08 Jan 15:18

I'd suggest that as the original raiser is no fool he won't give the strength of his hand away on the flop.

JJ v AA at this stage = lose a lot of chips



  Farrer 08 Jan 15:21

Okay he flat calls 55k. Flop is Txx. UTG (who has a wide range)checks, J bets 60k, gets called. Turn another X. Pot is 250k+, now what do you do? Whether UTG checks or bets ur in no man's land. If you check behind ur giving a chance for the LAG to push you off the river. If you bet you commit yourself, hopeless situation.

You can't lay down these hands with the ante structure, end of.



  Farrer 08 Jan 15:23

Yeah there's no chance the original raiser () will give away that he has AA preflop with a 3 bet all in, and that's the only way you can get away from the hand. If ur calling 55k hoping an AKQ doesn't hit the flop then you have to go with it anyway.



  Stallion1873 08 Jan 15:23

AA v JJ at this stage = running good



  New stack 08 Jan 15:27

Why can't you check behind on the turn?

He may not jam on the river, particularly as he still doesn't know where he is and you might still be able to keep some back and still pick up the pot.

Put yourself in the utg position.

You raise to 55k, stack similar to yours calls ... you lead flop of 963 for 80k ... he calls again. Turn T .. what cna he have? Ok I'm done here check .. but wait he checks behind you. River 2 - your move



  fishpoo 08 Jan 15:28

New stack 08 Jan 15:10

You're not necessarily passing if no set Jody. You can take the flop and reassess post -flop.

I agree, but in this spot Im raising back pre, if for any reason i do just call, then im definately pushing on any flop with no A K Q.
I just cannot see any point in calling pre with the no set, fold attitude. Obviously, my point is aimed at this no set attitude. But thats poker, million different opinions and no right or wrong.



  New stack 08 Jan 15:29

The reason I call and reassess is one reason only - I have position.



  Farrer 08 Jan 15:31

it's easy to answer these threads when you know the guy has AA. Remember his cards are face down during the time and with the information we have, the assumption is JJ would be good on the flop to a decent lag capable of making moves, and had been making them all throughout the FT.



  fishpoo 08 Jan 15:31

Put yourself in the utg position.

You raise to 55k, stack similar to yours calls ... you lead flop of 963 for 80k ... he calls again. Turn T .. what cna he have? Ok I'm done here check .. but wait he checks behind you. River 2 - your move

here obviously depends what ive got, but if AA, KK, all the chips will be in on turn (probably bet more on flop) with AK, then i think its 55k, 80k, check, oppo checks, river, i probably check behind and carry on with 335k stack still in ok position.



  New stack 08 Jan 15:32

Err except when I answered early on I didn't know he had AA.



  fishpoo 08 Jan 15:32

check behind = check fold



  New stack 08 Jan 15:33

That's the point FP - if he fires at the turn you are beat.

If he checks as we both do with AK, you accumulate your chips without putting your life on the line.



  New stack 08 Jan 15:36

If you put in a preflop raise and a flop bet both of which you have been called down with, then it would take a monumental effort to push the turn with any hand that JJ can beat and hope to get it through. If they can do that, then all power to them, but you can release JJ on the turn this way with no real damage done.



  New stack 08 Jan 15:37

In fact third bullet on turn with big stack versus big stack, I would say JJ is behind here 99% of the time.



  Farrer 08 Jan 15:38

That's the point FP - if he fires at the turn you are beat.

This is why the same people make big cash after cash ie Roland etc., because of this very notion. I'm not trying to knock you, but there's too much in the pot just to give up and someone making a move to push the other off is common.



  New stack 08 Jan 15:40

For every Roland who knows exactly where he is post-flop there are 100's of others who it won't work for.



  Farrer 08 Jan 15:44

but ur talking about laying JJ on a T high board at crapshoot blinds. I mean what's the calling range here, nuts only? Given the stack sizes a check raise all-in steal on the flop is quite standard because of the theories and thought processes you've detailed in this thread.



  New stack 08 Jan 15:44

There is never too much in the pot to give it up if you are beat. Pot odds and pot-committed are pointless if you are eliminated.

How many players have ever won a tournament from the rail?

Its horses for courses I guess, but I can't believe that after hours of sitting in a tournament and accumulating close on half a million chips, that you all want to go broke either pre or post flop with what is essentially one pair of jacks.

Perhaps I'm alone ....



  New stack 08 Jan 15:45

Calling range is not nuts only, but you can take a view in position depending on the action in front of you.

It is sometimes still ok to laydown the best hand and find another spot.



  Farrer 08 Jan 15:46

ur not alone, u either play to win or play to cash, that's the difference



  New stack 08 Jan 15:50

I always play to win, but I can't win if I'm out.



  Farrer 08 Jan 15:51

that you Russ?



  New stack 08 Jan 15:53

By winning this pot, you can't win the tournament.

You jam pre and he has no hand, he passes you are +55k.
You jam pre and he has a hand you are out ... unless you get lucky.

You jam behind him on the flop, he has AK you get 55k + poss upto 150k, your stack moves nicely to 670k but still a long way to go.
You jam behind on the flop and he has a hand you are out ... unless you get very lucky.



  New stack 08 Jan 15:55

670k is best case scenario. Hands that you beat excl TT are only offering a contiuation of 80-100k max.



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