Ivey the hustler?

[henrik777]

I dunno playing off a false handicap is akin to palming aces, cheating!!!!

I would doubt that Ivey has an "official" handicap, these guys arrange their own handicaps rather like we used to playing snooker, where it was considered good business to make a game where you had the edge.

Were MrCool and Ram cheating when they weren't giving Ivey enough shots and winning his money ?

If you deliberately give a false handicap knowing you will beat it easily then it's cheating. It doesn't matter if it's official or not.
As for them cheating him, then no because he is agreeing to the amount of shots he is given, so he would be cheating himself in effect.

On that basis then the shots were agreed before hand so there was no cheating by Phil Ivey either.

Sandy

[ifm]

I dunno playing off a false handicap is akin to palming aces, cheating!!!!

I would doubt that Ivey has an "official" handicap, these guys arrange their own handicaps rather like we used to playing snooker, where it was considered good business to make a game where you had the edge.

Were MrCool and Ram cheating when they weren't giving Ivey enough shots and winning his money ?

If you deliberately give a false handicap knowing you will beat it easily then it's cheating. It doesn't matter if it's official or not.
As for them cheating him, then no because he is agreeing to the amount of shots he is given, so he would be cheating himself in effect.

On that basis then the shots were agreed before hand so there was no cheating by Phil Ivey either.

Sandy

No because he is hiding the fact that he has improved.
I have played off 7 at my best, if i play in a ProAm and say i play off 16 and win then i cheat.
If i say i play off 7 and they say they'll give me 6 and i agree then that's up to me whether i wanna try to make up the shot.

[Karabiner]

I dunno playing off a false handicap is akin to palming aces, cheating!!!!

I would doubt that Ivey has an "official" handicap, these guys arrange their own handicaps rather like we used to playing snooker, where it was considered good business to make a game where you had the edge.

Were MrCool and Ram cheating when they weren't giving Ivey enough shots and winning his money ?

If you deliberately give a false handicap knowing you will beat it easily then it's cheating. It doesn't matter if it's official or not.
As for them cheating him, then no because he is agreeing to the amount of shots he is given, so he would be cheating himself in effect.

On that basis then the shots were agreed before hand so there was no cheating by Phil Ivey either.

Sandy

No because he is hiding the fact that he has improved.
I have played off 7 at my best, if i play in a ProAm and say i play off 16 and win then i cheat.
If i say i play off 7 and they say they'll give me 6 and i agree then that's up to me whether i wanna try to make up the shot.

So you are assuming that Ivey has put in his cards and played in the required number of monthly medals to maintain an official handicap which reflects his recent improvement.

This may not be the case, and if not a handicap has to be negotiated.

If those negotiations favour one player I would not consider that to be cheating.

If he has in fact lied about his official handicap, I agree that would be cheating.

[ifm]

Why are you talking about official handicaps?
Millions of golfers play every day without them, you only need one on some courses or for some competitions, against friends you do them yourself but you try to be fair.

If you deliberately mislead someone then that is cheating, this is my point.
I'm not commenting on this particular situation just that if you lie about a handicap you cheat.

[Karabiner]

I can assure you that for $50K per hole you would be trying to get the edge, I certainly would.

[Newmanseye]

I dont understand why ther is a debate on the subject, Ivey Clearly Hustled the other players, There is noquestion of that in my mind, I am surprised  he felt the need to hustle people like Mark and Ram however.

[BrumBilly]

For anyone who likes to read about proposition bets then check out Amarillo Slim's 'In a World Full of Fat Poeple'.

IMO if the above is true then Ivey has lost out in the long term here though I don't think it's up to him to be honest about how much he's improved. Once you make a bad bet you just have to pay up and put it down to experience.

The responsibility is on you to make sure you have the necessary information before you put up your money.

IMO not paying up is worse than deceiving opponents about your true playing ability. In the same way that if I lose money to a guy in a pub over a game of pool, I'd be wrong not to pay up even if I subsequently learned he was a World Champion and not the 'hobby player' he said he was. I'd feel disgusted at myself for being a mug but I'd pay up all the same as I'd feel worse not honouring my word.

It's all very well playing for high stakes but if you can't afford to lose you shouldn't play. If you get taken for a ride you should PAY UP and may be make a more sensible bet next time.

I can't stand people who make bets and try to avoid paying up!!!!

[kano]

The responsibility is on you to make sure you have the necessary information before you put up your money.

IMO not paying up is worse than deceiving opponents about your true playing ability. In the same way that if I lose money to a guy in a pub over a game of pool, I'd be wrong not to pay up even if I subsequently learned he was a World Champion and not the 'hobby player' he said he was. I'd feel disgusted at myself for being a mug but I'd pay up all the same as I'd feel worse not honouring my word.

It's all very well playing for high stakes but if you can't afford to lose you shouldn't play. If you get taken for a ride you should PAY UP and may be make a more sensible bet next time.

I can't stand people who make bets and try to avoid paying up!!!!

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

[BrumBilly]

I think if you allow yourself to be cheated in this manner you're a mug and as the saying goes 'never give a sucker an even break' . They thought they had the odds in their favour (that they couldn't lose) so why cry and not pay the money they lost? IMO that's plain wrong!

[Newmanseye]

The responsibility is on you to make sure you have the necessary information before you put up your money.

IMO not paying up is worse than deceiving opponents about your true playing ability. In the same way that if I lose money to a guy in a pub over a game of pool, I'd be wrong not to pay up even if I subsequently learned he was a World Champion and not the 'hobby player' he said he was. I'd feel disgusted at myself for being a mug but I'd pay up all the same as I'd feel worse not honouring my word.

It's all very well playing for high stakes but if you can't afford to lose you shouldn't play. If you get taken for a ride you should PAY UP and may be make a more sensible bet next time.

I can't stand people who make bets and try to avoid paying up!!!!

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

So essentially what you are both saying is once you twig you have been conned you should still pay because you were daft enough to be conned in the first place?

Good luck with that!

[ariston]

when the handicap is being set on one main question- ie how many shots does Erik give you as I played him last week and so did you then its fair to say if I say "erik gives me 10 shots" which later turns out to be " I don't give him any shots and he still beat me" then you have cheated. If you want to try and cheat friends like that then fair enough but when you play off scratch you can hardly cheat someone as you are saying I play off zero- ie I expect to shoot par on this round. If he had said I play Erik off level terms he wouldve still took a good few hundred thousand in the game but when you lie about something like that which is easily checked an hour after you finish your round you can't expect to get paid imo. would be a bit like me playing ram at snooker and saying I know you were semi professional a few years ago and I haven't played for 10 years and my highest break is 30 so I want a 60 point start, ram agrees and I knock a 120 in in the first frame. Would you say thats a fair thing to do to a mate? Remember all the huge names travel together and there aren't many people out there who will play golf for 50k a hole with you, if you become known as someone who will cheat you aint gonna get many other games are you.

[BrumBilly]

Of course it's not a fair thing to do to a mate. You're cofusing things here.

I'm saying that if you make a bet and you lose you should pay up.

They got confirmation after they'd lost their money and not before they made the bet.

If they beat him despite his improvement and later learned that he'd made the same false claim would they have declared the bet void and returned the money to Ivey?  

He's obviously not a 'mate' and that probably goes for a whole load of so called 'mates' on the scene.

When I make bets with mates it's not an amount that will hurt either of us. If a mate left me feeling cheated, I'd pay him off and cut all ties. Simple.

[byronkincaid]

How to hustle golf

most of the match is played before a club is ever picked up. if you can negotiate a good deal you win before you play, regardless of the actual outcome. its like getting a guy to go all in on the flop w/ AA v. your set, regardless of the outcome you win. examples of negotiating a good deal would be:

getting your opponent to take his strokes on the 1st holes in a skins game (w/ presses)by pretending to give him more strokes than you wanted to.

as far as being good at golf. i have a huslers game, i.e i chip and put extremely well. what this does is make me look lucky. i can bomb a 300 drive but i wouldnt. that is equated w/ GOOD. getting up and down at precise moments or never 3 putting will fly under the radar.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=7963651&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

[BrumBilly]

BTW this is a really interesting topic and is obviously very subjective. We've all got different takes on the ethics around gambling which is why I'm enjoying reading opposing views.

On a sidenote. Has anyone ever returned money to a bookmaker after having been overpaid on a win?

[BrumBilly]

Cheers for that link. Will make for a good read when I get in later.