What makes a club big?

[Sheriff Fatman]

Fan Base

Stadium

Success

History


Tis why Leeds and Forest are still big clubs, even though the success has gone. The other 3 factors remain.

I saw a survey where we were still the 7th best supported club in the country despite being bottom of the Championship.

Leeds aren't even the 7th best supported club in the Championship...

Average Attendance Rankings
 Team Pld Total Highest Average Capacity  Pct
1 Sunderland (7) 16 469573 40116 29348 48300  60.7%
2 Derby County (1) 15 372111 31920 24807 33597  73.8%
3 Norwich City (16) 16 392710 25433 24544 25500  96.2%
4 Sheffield Wednesday (13) 16 382036 29103 23877 39859  59.9%
5 Southampton (5) 16 365459 30548 22841 32551  70.1%
6 Ipswich Town (14) 15 336475 28355 22432 30311  74.0%
7 Leicester City (18) 15 331857 30457 22124 32500  68.0%
8 Birmingham City (4) 14 304679 29431 21763 30009  72.5%
9 West Bromwich Albion (3) 15 303890 26606 20259 28003  72.3%
10 Coventry City (17) 15 298479 27212 19899 23633  84.2%
11 Wolverhampton Wndrs (10) 16 317141 27203 19821 29400  67.4%
12 Leeds United (24) 15 292589 23037 19506 40204  48.5%
13 Hull City (22) 16 297213 25512 18576 25404  73.1%
14 Crystal Palace (12) 16 260601 20159 16288 26400  61.6%
15 Stoke City ( 16 259206 23017 16200 28384  57.0%
16 Cardiff City (6) 16 250271 20109 15642 21432  72.9%
17 Preston North End (2) 15 215461 19603 14364 20600  69.7%
18 Plymouth Argyle (11) 15 191278 17088 12752 20922  60.9%
19 Burnley (15) 14 174082 15061 12434 22546  55.1%
20 Queens Park Rangers (19) 16 198087 14793 12380 19148  64.6%
21 Barnsley (21) 15 176720 21253 11781 23186  50.8%
22 Southend United (23) 15 148344 11415 9890 12392  79.8%
23 Luton Town (20) 15 126777 10260 8452 9975  84.7%
24 Colchester United (9) 16 86054 6065 5378 7556  71.1%

Home: http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/D1/attend.html

[Acidmouse]

Many many factors to why Leeds fans have stopped watching,

Having one of the most expensive ticket prices for any football team in the country is one (£37 to watch a home game this season)  I can go watch a premeirship game within 45mins for half the price.

Having the worse record in the league.

People simply not supporting Leeds becasue of Master Bates attitude to the city and how he treats the fans.

Stopping most of the free tickets the Club gave to under privalaged groups around the city.

Doubling the cost of going to watch them if you were an OAP season ticket holder.

etc. etc. etc.

Maybe when he realises that filling up the stadium is important things will turn around.

You can quote facts all you like but for clubs in the championship Leeds at home is most probs the biggest game of the year for them.   

[AndrewT]

You can quote facts all you like but for clubs in the championship Leeds at home is most probs the biggest game of the year for them.   

As it will be for League One clubs next season...

[Acidmouse]

Yep will be fun going to watch Leeds and standing up at these small grounds

[kinboshi]

I'd consider Real Madrid a 'bigger' club than Barca. 

Someone needs to create an equation that determines big-ness.  It would have several co-efficients related to history, success, recent success, fan-base, money, etc.

Someone mentioned Japan (Tank I think) and ss an interesting aside, I lived in Japan just under 10 years ago.  At the time the only two clubs that Joe Public-san knew of from England were Liverpool and Man U. 

[Sheriff Fatman]

You can quote facts all you like but for clubs in the championship Leeds at home is most probs the biggest game of the year for them.   

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this one too.  Go down the list of teams in the division and most will have a 'bigger' game than the Leeds one (e.g. West Brom and Wolves, Leicester and Derby, Ipswich and Norwich, etc).  I also think you're misjudging just how many Leeds supporters travel away this season.  The away end for the Oakwell game had a lot of empty space in it, and that was a trip of less than 20 miles.

You can see from the attendance figures below, just how big a difference a big away following can have to our attendance (the Leeds game is our 2nd highest so far this year and both are 'local derbies').  Of our remaining home games I'm fairly confident that Sunderland will bring a bigger following than Leeds, and there's a chance that Birmingham and Derby will do do so too.

H   Leeds United     FLC     W      3-2      16,943
H   Sheffield Wed     FLC     L      0-3        21,253

You can make all the excuses you want but the fact is that Leeds league position and current core support doesn't justify them as a big club at present.  They made the play-offs last season and were still only the 8th best supported team in the division, so on field performance doesn't make a huge difference.

I've little doubt that a return to the Premiership for them would result in close to full-houses once again, but the same applies to every club in the division.  Right now, like the rest of us, you're stuck outside the Premiership watching the 'big clubs' like Wigan and Reading get bigger and bigger each year from the Premiership money (and the gap will grow again from next season's new deal).  Right now, regardless of what history says, they have the money and reputation to attract players that Leeds (and even more so, Barnsley) can't attract, and that makes them bigger clubs than us.

Ultimately it all comes down to who you can get to play for you, and money/league status are the big factors.

[kinboshi]

Man Citeh managed to bring in huge crowds when they were down a couple of leagues.

However, Leeds' drop has been slightly more cataclysmic - and I can undestand why some fans are disillusioned.  My Dad has been a Leeds fan for over 70 years, so he's seen some ups and downs, but he's said that recent times have been amongst the worst for the club.

[KingPoker]

I'd consider Real Madrid a 'bigger' club than Barca. 

Real is much much bigger than barca without a doubt!

[Acidmouse]

I don't want to get into a debate on facts and figures, how many travel here, there, thats missing the point.

My original thought wasn't saying Leeds coming into town was a big game based on 'actual attendence' I meant in terms of these small clubs wanting to still beat 'the mighty' Leeds, even though our current state (on and off the pitch) does not justify that tag.

However successful 90% of clubs in the Uk are they will never generate that buzz that Leeds can when they come to town.

"I've little doubt that a return to the Premiership for them would result in close to full-houses once again, but the same applies to every club in the division."

If Leeds went up (or if they had last season) they still woudn't get full houses, the fat bastard would have increased the prices coparable to those chelsea can charge. His logic remains charge double get 3/5 the crowd = a little more revenue = no atmosphere.

[Sheriff Fatman]

If its any consolation, our Chairman applies similar logic to the decisions he makes.  His recent 'sack the manager that got us promoted due to 'lack of ambition' and replace with inexperienced, cheapo academy manager from within' is a particular favourite at the moment.

I can't even make a valid case for a return to the 'good old days'.  The previous incumbent was Peter Ridsdale, the one before that asset-stripped us out of administration (whilst claiming to have 'saved the club') and the one's before that took us from Premiership to administration within 4 years!

 

[The Baron]

Man Citeh managed to bring in huge crowds when they were down a couple of leagues.

West Ham are also VERY well supported, even when they are outside the top flight.

[The Baron]

I'd consider Real Madrid a 'bigger' club than Barca. 

Real is much much bigger than barca without a doubt!

Tough to say.

Barca have the biggest fan base world wide. Real have been much more successful. Both spend huge amounts of money.

I would probably say Real due to their success. There isn't much between them on every other stat.

[Horneris]

Fan Base

Stadium

Success

History


Tis why Leeds and Forest are still big clubs, even though the success has gone. The other 3 factors remain.

I saw a survey where we were still the 7th best supported club in the country despite being bottom of the Championship.

Leeds aren't even the 7th best supported club in the Championship...

Average Attendance Rankings
 Team Pld Total Highest Average Capacity  Pct
1 Sunderland (7) 16 469573 40116 29348 48300  60.7%
2 Derby County (1) 15 372111 31920 24807 33597  73.8%
3 Norwich City (16) 16 392710 25433 24544 25500  96.2%
4 Sheffield Wednesday (13) 16 382036 29103 23877 39859  59.9%
5 Southampton (5) 16 365459 30548 22841 32551  70.1%
6 Ipswich Town (14) 15 336475 28355 22432 30311  74.0%
7 Leicester City (18) 15 331857 30457 22124 32500  68.0%
8 Birmingham City (4) 14 304679 29431 21763 30009  72.5%
9 West Bromwich Albion (3) 15 303890 26606 20259 28003  72.3%
10 Coventry City (17) 15 298479 27212 19899 23633  84.2%
11 Wolverhampton Wndrs (10) 16 317141 27203 19821 29400  67.4%
12 Leeds United (24) 15 292589 23037 19506 40204  48.5%
13 Hull City (22) 16 297213 25512 18576 25404  73.1%
14 Crystal Palace (12) 16 260601 20159 16288 26400  61.6%
15 Stoke City ( 16 259206 23017 16200 28384  57.0%
16 Cardiff City (6) 16 250271 20109 15642 21432  72.9%
17 Preston North End (2) 15 215461 19603 14364 20600  69.7%
18 Plymouth Argyle (11) 15 191278 17088 12752 20922  60.9%
19 Burnley (15) 14 174082 15061 12434 22546  55.1%
20 Queens Park Rangers (19) 16 198087 14793 12380 19148  64.6%
21 Barnsley (21) 15 176720 21253 11781 23186  50.8%
22 Southend United (23) 15 148344 11415 9890 12392  79.8%
23 Luton Town (20) 15 126777 10260 8452 9975  84.7%
24 Colchester United (9) 16 86054 6065 5378 7556  71.1%

Home: http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/D1/attend.html

I meant worldwide in terms of english clubs. Like scandanavia, Austrailia, Asia etc. where we still have decent fan bases.

Based on a survey i saw a few months ago, ill try and dig it out.

Sorry i didnt make myself clear.

I wouldnt say Barnsley are that small a club, but i was dissapointed with theyre attendances this year after going up, in comparison to what they used to get back in the premiership days, as is a Banrsley supporting friend of mine.

[The Baron]

I meant worldwide in terms of english clubs. Like scandanavia, Austrailia, Asia etc. where we still have decent fan bases

It's very hard to measure worldwide fan bases accurately. Even some of the most accurate football economists dont do it.

I'm not saying Leeds aren't 7th (they probably are) but more that how can we accurately measure fans in say, China for example?

[Sheriff Fatman]

I wouldnt say Barnsley are that small a club, but i was dissapointed with theyre attendances this year after going up, in comparison to what they used to get back in the premiership days, as is a Banrsley supporting friend of mine.

Not totally surprised by it to be honest.  A lot of the 'soul' of the club was killed by going into administration and drove away a lot of supporters who will be hard to win back, especially when its being run now with a 'corner shop' mentality.

Promotion was a welcome bonus last season, albeit probably a season earlier than we were ready for.  The trick now is to stay up this season and that's a big ask.  This division is very different now to the one we got relegated from a few years ago.  Historically, its our 'natural level' (we've spent more years there than any other club, by a long way) but we've got a lot of progress to make before we can do anything other than battle against relegation at this level.

We're playing Colchester on Saturday, who are showing this season what can be achieved on limited resources.  It is possible to build a team cheaply who can be competitive at that level.  We just seem to be going completely the wrong way about it.