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Author Topic: I would like to run this hand by you.  (Read 825 times)
bobby1
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« on: February 22, 2007, 02:08:48 AM »

Morning,

This is a hand I played recently that I have been thinking about for a week or so.

The game is $3-$6 NL, 6 handed. I have just sat at the table with $400 and the other five players have between $300 and $600 in front of them.

I am dealt ace ten unsuited one off the button and the action is folded to me, I raise to $21 and the button calls(he is playing $455)

The flop is ace, ten, five rainbow.

($51 in pot) I bet $24 dollars, is this bet about the right size? would you bet more? Would you check hoping to raise a bet from the button?

He then calls ($99 in the pot). The turn is an 8 bringing 2 clubs (the 8 and the ten) on to the board. After his flop call I have him on an ace so I bet again, $48 into the $99 pot. He min raises me to $96 dollars.

Here were my thoughts at that moment.

Does this bet scream strength or weakness?
Has he picked up a club draw with his ace?
Does he have two pair or does he like his Ace with a strong kicker?
Has my half pot bet induced an attempt from him to take the hand away with a strong looking min raise?

I try to narrow his hand down and come up with these hands in this order(this is obviously tough but I had it like this)

Ace 5.
55
Ace 8
Ace good kicker(I placed this last as I would have expected a reraise pre flop from the button with AQ or AK)

I discounted 10 10 and AA given my hand and then included Ace 5 of clubs which I kind of thought he could have.


If you are pretty happy that he has one of the five hands above how often should you raise in this spot to make it profitable in the long when you are right?
Given that he may have a strong hand or a decent draw is trying to keep this pot smaller than it needs to get weak?

If you simply chucked the rest in everytime would it be such a bad play?
Is the min raise that strong a bet anyway? I have seen some very good players say this is now becoming more of a weak bet than strength.


How would you play this from here?

If I have forgotten any info please let me know.

Thanks








« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 02:14:09 AM by bobby1 » Logged

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totalise
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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2007, 02:43:39 AM »

hi bobby,



Quote
($51 in pot) I bet $24 dollars, is this bet about the right size? would you bet more? Would you check hoping to raise a bet from the button?

theres two trains of thought here, one is that when you flop big hands you should bet big early to build the pot and get your opponents committed to the pot earlier before the board gets too scary. The other is that as you are 6 handed, you will miss more flops then you hit, and therefore you want to make these small bets with made hands so you can make them when you have nothing, because if you are playing a standard style, you are gonna have nothing more often then you have something, so your bluffs are cheaper. Of course, the problem here is that you then make your opponents re-bluffs cheaper as well.

I'm definately in the former camp, so I'd bet $45 or so here, but I wont say betting less is a mistake.


Quote
Does this bet scream strength or weakness?

min raises almost always scream strength.

Quote
Has he picked up a club draw with his ace?

I doubt it, sklansky 101, they prolly wont reopen the betting to get blown off the hand or pot stuck with a hand that will most likely need to improve to win

Quote
Does he have two pair or does he like his Ace with a strong kicker?

I'd prolly expect bigger aces to slide it up on the flop or preflop, people tend to play AK a lot faster then say 55 preflop.. but you cant just rule something out because its not what you personally would do, so you have to attribute some liklihood to it.

Quote
Has my half pot bet induced an attempt from him to take the hand away with a strong looking min raise?

almost certainly not. If he is min raising here, he isn't doing it to take the pot down here, he knows yer calling, he would be doing it to try and take it away from you on the river, but I think a bluff is a very small % of his range here


Quote
If you are pretty happy that he has one of the four hands above how often should you raise in this spot to make it profitable in the long when you are right?


if you are happy with this range, you should be super happy to get it in, you are a solid equity favorite over this range, even if you include AA/1010. Throw in some badly played draws, and its more then OK to shove it in.

Quote
Given that he may have a strong hand or a decent draw is trying to keep this pot smaller than it needs to get weak?

yes it is, because if he has either of those hands, he isn't raising the turn to pass to a fold, so all you are doing is limiting your winnings when he has a worse made hand or a draw, and maximising your losses when he has a better made hand (because your gonna call river pushes anyways). Maybe with the worse made hands he shoves it in on the river anyways, but he prolly wont bluff the river when he misses the draw, so you miss out on the value there. If you have more reason to think your opponent is a perennial bluffer, then calling the turn to let him hang himself is more then fine, but you dont have any clue yet, so dont get too tricky. Keep it simple.

Quote
If you simply chucked the rest in everytime would it be such a bad play?



no


Quote
Is the min raise that strong a bet anyway? I have seen some very good players say this is now becoming more of a weak bet than strength.

if you just assume the min-raise is a sign of strength until they prove otherwise, you wont be going too far wrong.




Quote
How would you play this from here?

ship
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2007, 04:01:09 AM »

So many players play their big hands slow on the flop, then fast on the turn. Given that he has celled your preflop raise i think ur beat and that he has 1010 or 55.
FOLD unless opponent is crap/drunk or its peak donkey time, ur drawing way too thin and he has you.
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boldie
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2007, 10:30:53 AM »

hi bobby,



Quote
($51 in pot) I bet $24 dollars, is this bet about the right size? would you bet more? Would you check hoping to raise a bet from the button?

theres two trains of thought here, one is that when you flop big hands you should bet big early to build the pot and get your opponents committed to the pot earlier before the board gets too scary. The other is that as you are 6 handed, you will miss more flops then you hit, and therefore you want to make these small bets with made hands so you can make them when you have nothing, because if you are playing a standard style, you are gonna have nothing more often then you have something, so your bluffs are cheaper. Of course, the problem here is that you then make your opponents re-bluffs cheaper as well.

I'm definately in the former camp, so I'd bet $45 or so here, but I wont say betting less is a mistake.


Quote
Does this bet scream strength or weakness?

min raises almost always scream strength.

Quote
Has he picked up a club draw with his ace?

I doubt it, sklansky 101, they prolly wont reopen the betting to get blown off the hand or pot stuck with a hand that will most likely need to improve to win

Quote
Does he have two pair or does he like his Ace with a strong kicker?

I'd prolly expect bigger aces to slide it up on the flop or preflop, people tend to play AK a lot faster then say 55 preflop.. but you cant just rule something out because its not what you personally would do, so you have to attribute some liklihood to it.

Quote
Has my half pot bet induced an attempt from him to take the hand away with a strong looking min raise?

almost certainly not. If he is min raising here, he isn't doing it to take the pot down here, he knows yer calling, he would be doing it to try and take it away from you on the river, but I think a bluff is a very small % of his range here


Quote
If you are pretty happy that he has one of the four hands above how often should you raise in this spot to make it profitable in the long when you are right?


if you are happy with this range, you should be super happy to get it in, you are a solid equity favorite over this range, even if you include AA/1010. Throw in some badly played draws, and its more then OK to shove it in.

Quote
Given that he may have a strong hand or a decent draw is trying to keep this pot smaller than it needs to get weak?

yes it is, because if he has either of those hands, he isn't raising the turn to pass to a fold, so all you are doing is limiting your winnings when he has a worse made hand or a draw, and maximising your losses when he has a better made hand (because your gonna call river pushes anyways). Maybe with the worse made hands he shoves it in on the river anyways, but he prolly wont bluff the river when he misses the draw, so you miss out on the value there. If you have more reason to think your opponent is a perennial bluffer, then calling the turn to let him hang himself is more then fine, but you dont have any clue yet, so dont get too tricky. Keep it simple.

Quote
If you simply chucked the rest in everytime would it be such a bad play?



no


Quote
Is the min raise that strong a bet anyway? I have seen some very good players say this is now becoming more of a weak bet than strength.

if you just assume the min-raise is a sign of strength until they prove otherwise, you wont be going too far wrong.




Quote
How would you play this from here?

ship


And that Ladies and Gentlemen is why totalises rules the Hand analysis forum.

Excellent post
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marcro
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2007, 11:00:13 AM »

hi bobby,



Quote
($51 in pot) I bet $24 dollars, is this bet about the right size? would you bet more? Would you check hoping to raise a bet from the button?

theres two trains of thought here, one is that when you flop big hands you should bet big early to build the pot and get your opponents committed to the pot earlier before the board gets too scary. The other is that as you are 6 handed, you will miss more flops then you hit, and therefore you want to make these small bets with made hands so you can make them when you have nothing, because if you are playing a standard style, you are gonna have nothing more often then you have something, so your bluffs are cheaper. Of course, the problem here is that you then make your opponents re-bluffs cheaper as well.

I'm definately in the former camp, so I'd bet $45 or so here, but I wont say betting less is a mistake.


Quote
Does this bet scream strength or weakness?

min raises almost always scream strength.

Quote
Has he picked up a club draw with his ace?

I doubt it, sklansky 101, they prolly wont reopen the betting to get blown off the hand or pot stuck with a hand that will most likely need to improve to win

Quote
Does he have two pair or does he like his Ace with a strong kicker?

I'd prolly expect bigger aces to slide it up on the flop or preflop, people tend to play AK a lot faster then say 55 preflop.. but you cant just rule something out because its not what you personally would do, so you have to attribute some liklihood to it.

Quote
Has my half pot bet induced an attempt from him to take the hand away with a strong looking min raise?

almost certainly not. If he is min raising here, he isn't doing it to take the pot down here, he knows yer calling, he would be doing it to try and take it away from you on the river, but I think a bluff is a very small % of his range here


Quote
If you are pretty happy that he has one of the four hands above how often should you raise in this spot to make it profitable in the long when you are right?


if you are happy with this range, you should be super happy to get it in, you are a solid equity favorite over this range, even if you include AA/1010. Throw in some badly played draws, and its more then OK to shove it in.

Quote
Given that he may have a strong hand or a decent draw is trying to keep this pot smaller than it needs to get weak?

yes it is, because if he has either of those hands, he isn't raising the turn to pass to a fold, so all you are doing is limiting your winnings when he has a worse made hand or a draw, and maximising your losses when he has a better made hand (because your gonna call river pushes anyways). Maybe with the worse made hands he shoves it in on the river anyways, but he prolly wont bluff the river when he misses the draw, so you miss out on the value there. If you have more reason to think your opponent is a perennial bluffer, then calling the turn to let him hang himself is more then fine, but you dont have any clue yet, so dont get too tricky. Keep it simple.

Quote
If you simply chucked the rest in everytime would it be such a bad play?



no


Quote
Is the min raise that strong a bet anyway? I have seen some very good players say this is now becoming more of a weak bet than strength.

if you just assume the min-raise is a sign of strength until they prove otherwise, you wont be going too far wrong.




Quote
How would you play this from here?

ship


And that Ladies and Gentlemen is why totalises rules the Hand analysis forum.

Excellent post

Agreed, hard to add any input to this.  Glad to see that my impression of the $24 being too small was in line with totalise.  In such cash games I will always raise 2/3rds of the pot as a "continuation" bet.
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