Top pair flush draw, tournament

[pswnio]

Hand #39974549-120 at Fri6amA-001 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Started at 23/Feb/07 07:37:02
 
     SirFinalTable is at seat 0 with 3745.
     MASofia is at seat 2 with 4015.
     snapso10 is at seat 3 with 1755.
     nfendall is at seat 4 with 5905.
     Pswnio is at seat 5 with 7260.
     Outkikked is at seat 6 with 4255.
     ribbsy is at seat 7 with 3570.
     Gaz B is at seat 8 with 6670.
     UpTheRiver is at seat 9 with 6260.
     The button is at seat 4.
    
     Pswnio posts the small blind of 100.
     Outkikked posts the big blind of 200.

     SirFinalTable:  -- --
     MASofia:  -- --
     snapso10:  -- --
     nfendall:  -- --
     Pswnio:  
     Outkikked:  -- --
     ribbsy:  -- --
     Gaz B:  -- --
     UpTheRiver:  -- --

Pre-flop:
 
          ribbsy folds.   Gaz B folds.   UpTheRiver folds.  
          SirFinalTable folds.   MASofia folds.   snapso10 folds.
            nfendall raises to 600.   Pswnio calls.   Outkikked
          folds.  

Flop (board: ):
 
          Pswnio checks.   nfendall bets 800.

1. What's your move here? Flat call and try to get more on turn, small raise, big raise, or push? I checked with the intention of check-raising, so...
2. Was a flat call pre flop out of position a bad move or ok?

[boldie]

It was the button who raised pre-flop so the call is fine (you could also have reraised him unless he's a rock).

Once you hit the board like this I prefer the checkraise. you have top pair and even if he is ahead you have loads of outs. Another club might scare him off betting here anyways so I'd stick in about 1500 more right here and hope he moves all in. (if he's holding a King)

[dime]

I like boldie's idea here, another argument for the raise is there is about 1,200 in the pot, the raise of 800 would be a standard continuation sized bet. What would people think of a call here and raise on the turn?

[SupaMonkey]

I would prefer to call here and check raise the turn, what do you think of that boldie?

[boldie]

I would prefer to call here and check raise the turn, what do you think of that boldie?

You can do that aswell, but the reason I like the check raise right here is that; on this board quite a few cards can scare him off if he has the King. (which admittedly is a VERY big if as he raised from the button and could have done that with any 2)

Any Ace and any club would slow him down and most players are quite wary of check calls from the blinds (unless they have the person in the blinds marked as complete calling stations) so the action is fairly likely to be check /check on the turn.
I am not too worried about giving him a free card here as any club helps me (and probably not him) but if you assume the action would be check /check on the turn then you're giving away 2 free cards and unless you improve it might slow you down a bit too much.

Say there's a non club turn and the action is check/check and then he moves all in on a raggy non club river, then what do you do? After all you only have top pair with a Queen kicker and well, it is your entire tourney at stake..and you have enough chips back to still win if you fold. Odds are you would fold the best hand there and then.

I wouldn't be afraid to get all my chips in the middle right here and now...but if you can get all his chips in the middle on the turn, which would probably happen if a rag non club turn comes down unless he's on a bluff here, then that's fine..I just don't like giving away free cards and would be fairly happy just taking the 1400 off him if he does decide to fold to a reraise right here.

[SupaMonkey]

Ok thanks,

If he checks behind you on the turn surely he has nothing so you can bet for value on the end.

If you check the turn don't you think he will bet again a higher proportion of the time.

[boldie]

Ok thanks,

If he checks behind you on the turn surely he has nothing so you can bet for value on the end.

If you check the turn don't you think he will bet again a higher proportion of the time.

The first question, that depends on what comes down on the turn and river. If we assume a rag comes down on the turn and the action is check/check and another onthe river (both non-clubs) then yes you can value bet but what do you do if he moves all in then? You can only call an all-in move on the river if you have something better than top pair with a Queen Kicker. After all this is still fairly early in the tourney (I'm assuming this is an MTT situation) and you've got plenty behind to fold.

question 2; I don't know, that does somewhat depend on the type of player he has you marked down as (and the type he is). Most players are fairly wary of check callers in the blinds who've already called a pre-flop raise from the SB. I have played with guys that will slow right down if someone only check calls whereas they would stick all their chips in if reraised (not the best players admittedly).
For him too this is still early in the tourney and he has enough chips behind to fold if necessary. The pot is big enough for him to check down and be happy that he took 1400 chips off you. It depends on how tight a player he is.

You've got a good chance of winning this hand as it stands, so I like to milk this for what it's worth on the flop.

If he doesn't have anything (not even a draw) and was just making a button move then he will fold here anyways and is unlikely to find the improvement he needs unless it's a runner runner thing. He also won't bet the turn if that's the case..and the only move he can make on the river is to stick them all in and, as I said earlier, unless you have improved you can't call that move unless you have improved.


Note; I could be completely wrong here and it could be piss poor play that I'm suggesting so if anyone has any ideas as to how else to play this and get the maximum out of the hand then that would be great.
This is just the way I ussually play these hands and my reasoning behind doing so.

[SupaMonkey]

Cheers Boldie.

[kinboshi]

I'd be raising here for sure.  You want to get the most chips from him here, and if you wait for the turn and the club comes that might be him closing down completely.  I think I'm in agreement with Boldie's thinking (sorry mate).

If you had AK (without clubs) what would you be betting here?  I'd probably bet the same with both hands.

Of course, stacks, and the player you're up against also need to be considered.

[pswnio]

Had only just moved to table. Had notes on him from a previous tourney which read "doesn't blind steal, doesn't defend them either". Which makes him passive, which meant it more likely than not that he'd caught a little something on this flop. Just what I wanted, to be honest. So decided to try and get his chips in there and then. Wasn't too difficult because he held KT! I made my flush - alas and alack, he made his full house.

Interesting debate with the flop check-call turn check-raise. Could be profitable occasionally but I think the turn is check checked most of the time and I don't like it for the reasons Boldie outlined. Doesn't matter in this instance, I was going to lose most of my stack regardless

[M3boy]

I would check raise all in (overbet)

This move is a sure sign of a flush draw and I think he will call with even a low PP - You having TP is a REAL bonus.

[Royal Flush]

It's pretty clear that the C/R is golden here as many people have said, i don't like going for it on the turn though as lots of people have said.

One question though, Boldie why do you need to improve to call the river? This has perplexed me, do you have a list of hands you are willing to go broke with on the river?

If we asses this hand as we should, we check call the flop he bets 800 bumping the pot to 2800 after our call, we look like we are quite weak (Ten or FD) the turn goes check check, with this draw heavy board its pretty clear he has a massive hand now or nothing. So the river comes another blank, we now again send a sign of weakness with a check (we have check called, check checked and checked again) now he knows we have a ten at best and he can put us to the test so he fires his 4500 into the 2800 pot, we have trapped him a beaut, and now you want to pass?!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!



VOC

[boldie]

It's pretty clear that the C/R is golden here as many people have said, i don't like going for it on the turn though as lots of people have said.

One question though, Boldie why do you need to improve to call the river? This has perplexed me, do you have a list of hands you are willing to go broke with on the river?

If we asses this hand as we should, we check call the flop he bets 800 bumping the pot to 2800 after our call, we look like we are quite weak (Ten or FD) the turn goes check check, with this draw heavy board its pretty clear he has a massive hand now or nothing. So the river comes another blank, we now again send a sign of weakness with a check (we have check called, check checked and checked again) now he knows we have a ten at best and he can put us to the test so he fires his 4500 into the 2800 pot, we have trapped him a beaut, and now you want to pass?!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!



VOC

I think most people when they play the hand out by check calling and then check the turn and then check the turn only to find themselves stuck all in when they have a lot of fold equity in that situation would lay the hand down as they only have top pair and the oppo could have anything. It's also dependent on the player you play obviously and, like I said, I could be stupid for sometimes laying it down but I don't see giving someone whose holding you don't know two free cards and then calling his all-in good trapping unless you have what is close to the nuts..and 1 pair Q kicker isn't it.

[Royal Flush]

It's pretty clear that the C/R is golden here as many people have said, i don't like going for it on the turn though as lots of people have said.

One question though, Boldie why do you need to improve to call the river? This has perplexed me, do you have a list of hands you are willing to go broke with on the river?

If we asses this hand as we should, we check call the flop he bets 800 bumping the pot to 2800 after our call, we look like we are quite weak (Ten or FD) the turn goes check check, with this draw heavy board its pretty clear he has a massive hand now or nothing. So the river comes another blank, we now again send a sign of weakness with a check (we have check called, check checked and checked again) now he knows we have a ten at best and he can put us to the test so he fires his 4500 into the 2800 pot, we have trapped him a beaut, and now you want to pass?!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!



VOC

I think most people when they play the hand out by check calling and then check the turn and then check the turn only to find themselves stuck all in when they have a lot of fold equity in that situation would lay the hand down as they only have top pair and the oppo could have anything. It's also dependent on the player you play obviously and, like I said, I could be stupid for sometimes laying it down but I don't see giving someone whose holding you don't know two free cards and then calling his all-in good trapping unless you have what is close to the nuts..and 1 pair Q kicker isn't it.

I know a lot of people fold the river here with KQ, thats what makes poker so easy to beat. You are too obsessed with your hand here, top pair or top 2 is the same thing when u are in this spot, you are up against a set or air. Even bottom set is the same as KQ here.


VOC

[boldie]

It's pretty clear that the C/R is golden here as many people have said, i don't like going for it on the turn though as lots of people have said.

One question though, Boldie why do you need to improve to call the river? This has perplexed me, do you have a list of hands you are willing to go broke with on the river?

If we asses this hand as we should, we check call the flop he bets 800 bumping the pot to 2800 after our call, we look like we are quite weak (Ten or FD) the turn goes check check, with this draw heavy board its pretty clear he has a massive hand now or nothing. So the river comes another blank, we now again send a sign of weakness with a check (we have check called, check checked and checked again) now he knows we have a ten at best and he can put us to the test so he fires his 4500 into the 2800 pot, we have trapped him a beaut, and now you want to pass?!!!!!!!!!!!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!



VOC

I think most people when they play the hand out by check calling and then check the turn and then check the turn only to find themselves stuck all in when they have a lot of fold equity in that situation would lay the hand down as they only have top pair and the oppo could have anything. It's also dependent on the player you play obviously and, like I said, I could be stupid for sometimes laying it down but I don't see giving someone whose holding you don't know two free cards and then calling his all-in good trapping unless you have what is close to the nuts..and 1 pair Q kicker isn't it.

I know a lot of people fold the river here with KQ, thats what makes poker so easy to beat. You are too obsessed with your hand here, top pair or top 2 is the same thing when u are in this spot, you are up against a set or air. Even bottom set is the same as KQ here.


VOC

fair point.

BTW flush..what does VOC stand for?