2 hands...

[totalise]

both of these 5/10 6 handed.. the first hand the table was full, the second one the table was 5 handed.


1) been at the table 5 min, you got $1018, get Q/8 suited on the button, try and raise it to 35 but bodge it up and make it 358, SB who you think has some clue what hes doing pushes (and covers) ... you?

2) (villain here is clickypoppop on blondesroom).. he seems like he has a pretty solid game, limps a bit more often then im used to seeing, but postflop seems ok. Just solid I guess is the easiest way to describe him (albeit from a limited sample). He makes it $33 from the 2 seat, I re-raise to 130 with 1010 from the SB (with 1k stack, and he covers) he calls.. flop J10x with 2 hearts, I lead for 180, he calls. turn 7 hearts, I check for the stackadonk, he checks behind like they always do when I have a hand in that spot, and the river is an 8... you?

[Horneris]

This is an interesting post and these are both difficult.

1) Id probably call for the value and because i have so much invested and then hit myself hard on the head when i lose 1k for my raise error.
I believe the correct play might be to fold but im a gambler and a bad player in cash. SO not much help.

2) Dont think theres a huge reason to put him on a 9 aqnd not a hand like Q 10, K 10, A10, possibly QJ, KJ, depending on his aggressiveness. The right play is probably a value bet of around 250. Thats what id do, and then be devastated and fold when he pushes all in with his 9.

Im interested in seeing what better players say and what you actually did.

[doubleup]

These misclicks are interesting.  Obviously he knows that you meant to button raise so what would be his rr range?  AQ/K 99+?  Looks like a fold to me unless AJ/T are in his range.   

2nd hand Is there any point in betting, presumably you would have to fold if raised.  Is there any worse hand that he is going to call you with?  He probably puts you on AQ/K so KQ is the only hand he would bluff with if you check.  hmmm I've talked myself into a bet of 100, fold to a raise.

[kinboshi]

Fold the first, then kick something/someone for the mis-click.

I'd small value bet the second one (same sized bet as I'd make if I had the nuts flush).  The value bet might slow him down with anything but a big flush.  This is probably where I lose lots of money so it'll be interesting to see what decent cash players do, and the reasoning behind it.

[Smart Money]

You're getting 2:1 on your money on the first hand but it should still be an easy fold in cash every time. The only hand you're getting correct odds to call against is AK (which means a fold is equally as good a move as a call in this situation.) However you're in a far worse state against any other hand he would push with including about 6.5/1 against AA/KK which is a more likely holding of his.


In hand 2, I would put in a value/blocker bet of around $150 - $200 into the $620 pot, and fold to any raise.

[byronkincaid]

I would fold hand 1 cos you've only been at the table for 5 mins. If he knows you and how wide (I assume) your button raise range is then maybe it's a call, but he has to put you on a tighter range if you are unknown to him I think.

hand 2 first I thought if you were gonna use the stackadonk line then you obv think you're ahead on the turn so you prob still are on the river (unless he has 99) and should therefore bet for value. but then I thought WTF is he gonna call with here that you beat. Maybe he calls with an overpair or a smaller set I'm not too sure TBH. anyway I would C/C and hope he either bluffs at it cos you have played it so weak or maybe he thinks his overpair/small set is good and bets for value.

[Delboy]

1) I would fold - with only 5mins at the table I would have limited info for a value call.

2) There is nothing I can beat, but a bluff. I don't want to put money in to fold to a raise. I'll check and probably call a raise up to about 200. If i lose I, at least, gain info on what hand he played like this.

[boldie]

hand one is a very easy fold. I also don't like the raise with crap like that even on the button. It really is a dire hand and should not be raised with in a cash game. (in a tourney latter stages when you need to pick up the blinds it's fair enough but not in a cash game where you should have to worry about the blinds) I in fact doubt it should even be played..but fair enough.

Hand 2, I don't like the turn check very much. you have to lead out here as he could have anything (straight, flush etc) and the pot is big enough and the hand strong enough.

I think a check raise on the turn (what I think you were going for) is a weak and dangerous play and should not be used. If you want the "stack a donk" you should lead out and hope he sticks you all in. Not get him to put a bet in the middle only to be able to fold to your all in move..or (more likely) you to do your stack in when he calls your re-raise with a straight or flush. The move you're planning will only cost him a bet, never his entire stack unless he has you beat.

As it is I'd check this now and call a bet..but curse myself for playing the way I did.

just my two pence

[byronkincaid]

I also don't like the raise with crap like that even on the button. It really is a dire hand and should not be raised with in a cash game. (in a tourney latter stages when you need to pick up the blinds it's fair enough but not in a cash game where you should have to worry about the blinds) I in fact doubt it should even be played..but fair enough.

Q8s is def a raising hand on the button in 6 max NL. You have to raise hands like this to get action when you get AA. Also your opp ain't gonna put you on it so if the flop hits you you may well get paid off. Also some people call raises in the blinds and then fold to a C-bet. They are just giving you money. Why not give them the opportunity to do so.

It think it was either CTS or Sbrugby who posted somewhere that he had a lightbulb moment when he realised that you could and should be raising any 2 on the button.

[boldie]

I also don't like the raise with crap like that even on the button. It really is a dire hand and should not be raised with in a cash game. (in a tourney latter stages when you need to pick up the blinds it's fair enough but not in a cash game where you should have to worry about the blinds) I in fact doubt it should even be played..but fair enough.

Q8s is def a raising hand on the button in 6 max NL. You have to raise hands like this to get action when you get AA. Also your opp ain't gonna put you on it so if the flop hits you you may well get paid off. Also some people call raises in the blinds and then fold to a C-bet. They are just giving you money. Why not give them the opportunity to do so.

It think it was either CTS or Sbrugby who posted somewhere that he had a lightbulb moment when he realised that you could and should be raising any 2 on the button.

fair enough..I think however that a hand that would call your queen is likely to dominate you. I am with Doyle Brunson and prefer to raise with suited connectors or two small cards rather then with a hand likely to be dominated by a caller,

[stewart]

hand 1: i agree with boldie why are you even asking the question here? you raise to $33 with a building hand then get re-raised and are asking what would you do there isnt even a question here its obvious

hand 2: pre-flop is fair enough play on the flop your betting less than half the pot giveing the flush/strait draw the odds to call you when the flush comes on the turn your actually think you are trapping him? and the strait comes on the river   you got to fold here your only ahead of a complete idiot, he could well of made the nut flush on the turn and giveing you a chance to hit something or have 89 here and scrared of the flush 

both hands i dont really think you got a question  the 1st def  the 2nd you played it wrong i figure you realize that otherwise why post?  we all learn by our mistakes and as i said yours was giveing him odds to hit if you bet 300 here and he has a flush/strait draw gl to him  we bet 180 here remembering he raised to 33 and we reraised 130 so there is at least 326 + the change in the pot as i said above im done with the hand on the turn not looking to trap the guy im looking to get a free river to fill up here

[JungleCat03]

Decent players are going to raise the button occasionally without a hand(esp shorthanded). I remember an old quote from Brunson where he said give me the button every hand and I can play my cards blind and win.

You're not playing Q8s here really but more playing position as you'll have a lot more information than your opponents throughout the hand while relatively deep stacked.

Of course occasionally you will flop a big hand and run into another hand that will pay you off. Your post flop skills have to be good though to get away as cheaply as possibly when behind(or find another way to win the pot if possible) and maximise your profit when ahead.

I think the concept of being dominated is sometimes overplayed. If you hit a pair of queens with an 8 kicker you will lose some money versus a better queen but are unlikely to stack off here, whereas it is quite possible that someone with AQ (if they happened to flat call you preflop) might well go broke on a Q 8 flop. Also the fact you share a card makes it less likely you both hit and more liekly you pick the pot up with post flop aggression.

Another reason to raise with this sort of hand was mentioned by byron and that's to disguise your real hands on the button. If you only ever have premium hands here, your raising range is predictable, which makes you easy to read and able to be outplayed more easily.

Hand 1 I would fold as even though you are getting >2 to 1 he has AA KK way too often to be profitable and it's a bit too expensive to advertise, seeing as it will be obvious to anyone who notices that you misclicked.

Hand 2 I would struggle here. It seems unlikely you would have a flush / straight here so a good player might well blast the river with a jack or the missed KQ/AQ/AK.

I think checking and calling the river is good here as those 3 hands constitute a good part of his range and if he has a flush then he might well make a small vb that you can call cheaply. SO let him bluff his missed hands and possibly smaller vb his big hands.

[byronkincaid]

I also don't like the raise with crap like that even on the button. It really is a dire hand and should not be raised with in a cash game. (in a tourney latter stages when you need to pick up the blinds it's fair enough but not in a cash game where you should have to worry about the blinds) I in fact doubt it should even be played..but fair enough.

Q8s is def a raising hand on the button in 6 max NL. You have to raise hands like this to get action when you get AA. Also your opp ain't gonna put you on it so if the flop hits you you may well get paid off. Also some people call raises in the blinds and then fold to a C-bet. They are just giving you money. Why not give them the opportunity to do so.

It think it was either CTS or Sbrugby who posted somewhere that he had a lightbulb moment when he realised that you could and should be raising any 2 on the button.

fair enough..I think however that a hand that would call your queen is likely to dominate you. I am with Doyle Brunson and prefer to raise with suited connectors or two small cards rather then with a hand likely to be dominated by a caller,

Ah but Q8s is a suited connector


villain called a 3 bet in hand 2. i don't play this high so I don't know but at my levels people don't call 3 bets with KQ or 98. It's usually AK and mid to high pairs.

[boldie]

I also don't like the raise with crap like that even on the button. It really is a dire hand and should not be raised with in a cash game. (in a tourney latter stages when you need to pick up the blinds it's fair enough but not in a cash game where you should have to worry about the blinds) I in fact doubt it should even be played..but fair enough.

Q8s is def a raising hand on the button in 6 max NL. You have to raise hands like this to get action when you get AA. Also your opp ain't gonna put you on it so if the flop hits you you may well get paid off. Also some people call raises in the blinds and then fold to a C-bet. They are just giving you money. Why not give them the opportunity to do so.

It think it was either CTS or Sbrugby who posted somewhere that he had a lightbulb moment when he realised that you could and should be raising any 2 on the button.

fair enough..I think however that a hand that would call your queen is likely to dominate you. I am with Doyle Brunson and prefer to raise with suited connectors or two small cards rather then with a hand likely to be dominated by a caller,

Ah but Q8s is a suited connector

lol..not quite what i meant but yeah

[ACE2M]

I am interested why you posted hand 1 given that it seems like a fairly obvious fold. There must be some higher thinking here i presume.

I value bet hand 2 for $250 and fold to a raise on the river. His only likely raising hand on the river is a flush, a 9 will only raise a small amount of the time, your play fits a nut flush perfectly.