Minimum re-raise amount

[Longines]

This came up during a self-dealt tournament yesterday.

Blinds are 100/200. First to act makes it 700 total to go.

What is the minimum the next to act can bet/raise/put in the pot etc.? I came up with one figure, mateyboy came up with another.

[Rookie (Rodney)]

He can make it 1200

[AndrewT]

The current raise is 500. So the minimum reraise is also 500.

Therefore if the next player wants to raise the minimum he makes it 1200 to go.

[Longines]

I said 1200 too.

He was adamant it was 1400 - "you have to double the previous bet". A fairly well known festival regular at the table agreed with him and I'm starting to think 'is it me?'.

They ask for a ruling and the supervisor agrees it should be 1400. I check with the senior cardroom supervisor later on and he states it should be 1400.

After the comp and whilst discussing it with the supervisor, he collars a passing floor manager and asks him as apparently he's the traiining manager for the whole casino group and "has all the rules memorised".

His reply was "the offical group rules are that 1200 is correct but rule 75 comes into effect (i.e. "The cardroom supervisor is God" or similar wording...) and here we always play to the double the bet rule."

So, one pyrrhic vidication to me and an advance warning to anyone who wants to min re-raise at the Walsall Grosvenor.

[matt674]

the minimum amount technically is 701 - provided you have chips of that denomination and that is all the chips the player has 

 

[BrumBilly]

1200 total, not sure why they'd use the phrase 'double the bet' when they're supposed to be talking about the size of the raise (just confuses the issue). Self dealt comps are a law unto themselves!

[Longines]

Being self-dealt didn't make any difference - doubling the total not doubling the raise is what the staff will enforce in every comp as far as I can see.

So, taking it to the extreme, 700 > 1400 > 2800 > 5600 > 11200 > 22400 rather than 700 > 1200 > 2200 > 4200 > 8200 > 16200.

[matt674]

Being self-dealt didn't make any difference - doubling the total not doubling the raise is what the staff will enforce in every comp as far as I can see.

So, taking it to the extreme, 700 > 1400 > 2800 > 5600 > 11200 > 22400 rather than 700 > 1200 > 2200 > 4200 > 8200 > 16200.

If the initial raise was 500 then it should go 700>1200>1700>2200>2700 by minimum reraising every time

[Longines]

As I understand it you need to double the *preceeding* raise each time not just increase the original raise, so:

200 + raise of 500 = 700
200 + (the preceeding raise of 500 x 2) = 1200
200 + (the preceeding raise of 1000 x 2) = 2200
200 + (the preceeding raise of 2000 x 2) = 4200
etc.

[AdamM]

As I understand it you need to double the *preceeding* raise each time not just increase the original raise, so:

200 + raise of 500 = 700
200 + (the preceeding raise of 500 x 2) = 1200
200 + (the preceeding raise of 1000 x 2) = 2200
200 + (the preceeding raise of 2000 x 2) = 4200
etc.

if the betting ever goes like that in NLH  the players want their heads banging together

[Rookie (Rodney)]

Being self-dealt didn't make any difference - doubling the total not doubling the raise is what the staff will enforce in every comp as far as I can see.

So, taking it to the extreme, 700 > 1400 > 2800 > 5600 > 11200 > 22400 rather than 700 > 1200 > 2200 > 4200 > 8200 > 16200.

If the initial raise was 500 then it should go 700>1200>1700>2200>2700 by minimum reraising every time

Thats what i thought

[Longines]

From the Poker Tournament Directors Association rules:

26. There is no cap on the number of raises in no-limit games. A raise must be at least the size of the previous raise. [...]


Seems to me it comes down to the interpretation of "the size of the previous raise". When 2nd to act makes it 1200 to go, is his raise 500 or 1000? I suppose his raise is 500 ("call 700 plus raise another 500"[1]) so 700 > 1200 > 1700 > 2200 > 2700 does go?











[1] yes, I know.

[Sheriff Fatman]

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=2461.0

Check this thread out - it was debated a while ago and there's a lot of feedback in there from various TDs.

The conclusion is that there's no standard rule on this.  US and online cardrooms tend to follow your interpretation, but many UK cardrooms see it the other way.

[Longines]

Thanks for the pointer Sheriff.

Wow. Very interesting thread. Coudn't come up with a greyer grey area if you tried.

[rudders]

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=2461.0

Check this thread out - it was debated a while ago and there's a lot of feedback in there from various TDs.

The conclusion is that there's no standard rule on this.  US and online cardrooms tend to follow your interpretation, but many UK cardrooms see it the other way.

This whole issue of standardisation aggravates me beyond belief!  I was assured by the GUKPT TD  (Mike? from southhampton) that the grovesnor do have a standardised det of rules that shopuld be both available and implemented in all grovesnor casinos- I did point out that this is not the experience of many/most players however he was adamant that this is the case. There is also a 4 man commitee of Tds within grovesnor that review these rules periodically.

In this case I  do not feel there should be much ambiguity-  a raise is the increase in bet size from the original bet. therefore

200(bet) + 500(raise) = 700 therefore min raise is 500 more

700(call) + 500(raise) = 1200  or 200(call the bet) + 500( call the raise) +500 (reraise)

these terms are fairly standard are they not?

anyway I am off to read the rules that are posted on the wall of my local casino...