Time distortion

[Swordpoker]

Really two different subjects are being discussed here, one is phsiological and the other psychological.

In sport, and from studies that i have looked at reaction times are simply a process which can be developed. Its not hard to understand that Tae-kwondo experts have a much faster synaptic response to stimulus than a normal person walking down the street.

Actually, physically, reaction time is pretty constant. Didn't we have a thread sometime testing this? It had a link to an online test. You can train your reaction time to speed up but not anywhere near to the extent that I'm talking about with time distortion.



You cannot use the car crash as a way of showing it is possible to slow perception of time down because that is a subconcious response which IMO cannot be brought through to the concious.


If you are aware it, then it has come into your consciousness.

 
So dont go wasting your time trying to control time, just take up a martial art!


I don't usually describe fencing as a martial art but in this case it makes a pretty good example. I definitely perceive that I have more time to think.

Or in a more sensible way to develop your multi tabling just play play play and you will find your game will become more automated and take you a lot less time to make each decision (maybe that is what can be said to be time distortion, who knows!).   


I've multi tabled for almost 2 years and my game has become more automated. Although it actually takes me less time to make each decision, I feel that I can and do take plenty of time over my decisions.
 

[KingPoker]

Really two different subjects are being discussed here, one is phsiological and the other psychological.

In sport, and from studies that i have looked at reaction times are simply a process which can be developed. Its not hard to understand that Tae-kwondo experts have a much faster synaptic response to stimulus than a normal person walking down the street.

Actually, physically, reaction time is pretty constant. Didn't we have a thread sometime testing this? It had a link to an online test. You can train your reaction time to speed up but not anywhere near to the extent that I'm talking about with time distortion.

Yes but im afraid we on here arent who i was talking about. I watched a Dicovery Science programme not long ago trying to use the latest technology to find which was the "best" style of martial art. They tested rection times and they had the reigning world tae-kwondo champion on there and it the test was the one where the light comes on and you have to hit it as soon as it lights up. This guy did the whole process in less than 170th of a second. Faster almost than me or anybody on here would even see the light come on. The kung fu champion came second with around 200th of a second and the karate champion in about 230th of a second. Now these times are about as fast as a human can have. So yes IMO reaction time can be developed to the very highest and fastest a human can possibly achieve.


You cannot use the car crash as a way of showing it is possible to slow perception of time down because that is a subconcious response which IMO cannot be brought through to the concious.


If you are aware it, then it has come into your consciousness.

Very true, you are able to perveive a subconcious thought in your concious (i.e remembering a dream) but being able to exactly recreate a subconsious response of the given example of the crash is highly implausible.

 
So dont go wasting your time trying to control time, just take up a martial art!


I don't usually describe fencing as a martial art but in this case it makes a pretty good example. I definitely perceive that I have more time to think.

I argue you dont have more time to think but rather you are able to react in less time.

Or in a more sensible way to develop your multi tabling just play play play and you will find your game will become more automated and take you a lot less time to make each decision (maybe that is what can be said to be time distortion, who knows!).   


I've multi tabled for almost 2 years and my game has become more automated. Although it actually takes me less time to make each decision, I feel that I can and do take plenty of time over my decisions.
 
My whole argument of developing multi tabling skill is not to have more time to make decisons but to need less time to take in more information, information that wins you pots or stops you losing.

[Moskvich]

I'm not sure you could put it all down to physiological training - there's definitely a mental state that can be achieved where senses are heightened and intuitive responses are faster and more accurate. I'd say it probably is close to a zen-like state - certainly it's more than simply concentrating and reacting to stimuli - and I'd have thought most people have experienced it in one form or another. I suspect that the more often you experience it, the easier it is to get it back again. Professional sportsmen are presumably pretty good at turning it on when necessary, so maybe it is a 'trick' that can be acquired on some level.

[bolt pp]

I'm experiencing time distortion reading this thread

Takes 5 minutes to read, feels like 2 hours

[iceman]

there is only one true way to experience time distortion, have children.

[thetank]

If you were to 7 table cash games, would you feel you had the same amount of time to make your decisions? If not, then how much, or rather how little, time would it feel like?

I think I'd have the same amount of time to decide in cash, but I'd be slower at doing so because I'm less used to it. I don't think this has much to do with time distortion and slowing things down, just a case of knowing what to do in situations you've been in 1,000s of times before.

One of the possible reasons there is no slowey down sensation for me is that I think it is linked to adrenaline, and I try to keep myself as calm as possible.
I think you should get your fencers to take off their protective helmets and such, sharpen their blades, maybe get them to have their bouts on a narrow plank of wood traversing a piranha shark pool. If that doesn't distort time then nothing will.

[Rod Paradise]

I think you should get your fencers to take off their protective helmets and such, sharpen their blades, maybe get them to have their bouts on a narrow plank of wood traversing a piranha shark pool. If that doesn't distort time then nothing will.

That's what drunken topless sabre is for Tank.

[Digger]

I've just lost 45 min's reading this.....does that count for anything?

 

My question is....is there a huge benefit to the poker player?

IMHO, training and fitness play a part, both mental and physical. As with all sports, the trained athlete with more experience will generally win out & find the battle less of a stress because both body and mind are ready for the challenge.

I'm not one to discount other peoples ideas, so will be following this post with interest.

[madasahatstand]

how can it be? do you mean like going into a meditative state or something else? im thinking off and on is a bit too clever

Yes, I change my state of mind. It's a subconscious process so I don't have to think about it or remember to switch it on, it just happens. Although now, I'm able to also consciously 'switch it on' when I want to. If I'm standing in a long queue, for example, I can speed time up so it feels like the queue has moved really quickly and I'm at the front in no time at all.

There is no 'special ability' in this. Everyone does it to some extent. I just want to find out which of you guys are really good at it so I can learn what it is that you do differently to the way I do it.

By the way. It doesn't matter if you don't know how you do it. Just let me know if you've noticed the experience first of all.

ah so you are trying to find the mechanism by which the process happens? what preceeds you going into this state? how can you switch it on? im thinking its about what you concentrate on. like the longest meeting in the world can be speeded up by focusing on something a bit more interesting while trundling through the agenda? id like to explore this with you the next time we meet. i need a bit of skill around switching on and off

[AndrewT]

I remember watching Jeremy Clarkson testing Michael Schumacher's reaction time (the old 'catch a falling ruler' test), expecting him to be super quick, but he found that his reaction time was no quicker than normal. In fact, there's not much difference in most people's reaction times to a random stimulus - we're all much of a muchness.

However, in specialised circumstances (like fencing or taekwando, the two examples used so far) seasoned practitioners appear to react much quicker than the untrained, when in fact they are not. What they are doing is recognising the events leading up to the stimulus and starting to react before it has happened.

For example, if I was playing taekwando and my opponent hit me, the first I would know about it would be seeing his arm move towards me, by which time it would be too late for me to do anything. However an expert would know the punch is coming before the arm even moves. Because he will have been in this situation thousands of times before, he will subconsciously recognise the things that happen before the arm moves. A tensing of muscle, a subtle shift in weight, a change in where the opponent's eyes are looking etc. By the time the arm actually moves, he will have 'sensed' it was coming and will have already begun to defend against it.

To a casual observer, it will look as though he has reacted super-quickly to the punch coming when in fact he hasn't.

It is this 'my subconscious brain has seen this situation a million times before and so has already decided the best course of action' which is at play in poker. To the conscious mind, it's as if you have come to a decision much quicker than everyone else, when in fact it is that your subconscious has used information tucked away in your brain that your conscious mind isn't even aware of.

It's been mentioned before when we've had similar discussions but I would recommend the book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell, which goes into this sort of thing.

Getting into a focused state of mind to play poker is a different thing entirely, and is more to do with getting into a set routine of 'resetting' your mind at the start of every hand so that you are in the same place every time and able to run through a checklist of the things you are consciously looking out for. The subconsious stuff can only come with playing thousands and thousands of hands.

[Swordpoker]

Kingpoker,

These figured sound about right to me. Normal reaction time is around 230-270 milliseconds. If those with the best reaction times are doing it in 170 then thats a significant difference. But if this leads to my concept of time distortion then time would only slow down by around 1/3. Athletes though, feel time distorting huge amounts more than that. Perhaps 10 or 20 times slower, or even more.

Mad,

Sure, I'll give you some strategies to play with. Maybe you can use them at the blonde bash to make your final table experience last longer 

Digger,

Good question. I definitely think it would help someone wanting to learn how to multi-table, or how to play more tables than they currently are. Other than that, I don't think there is much real need. Perhaps though, some players make the mistake of distorting time the opposite way to what would be useful. Ever felt the pressure to rush a decision when, in fact, you had plenty of time?

Andrew,

Superb post. It's possible to 'fake' a great result on the catch a ruler test by finding out the physical tells of the person dropping the ruler. They always give away something. So poker players might be proven to have better reactions than formula one drivers some time in the future

Thanks for the book recommendation. Someone else has also told me about that book so I'll be reading it soon.

Playing thousands of hands, of course, will help. But rather than use trial and error, I'm looking for good strategies that I can apply. Then perhaps I can get in sussed in a few hundred hands and by the time I reach a few thousand, I'm much better at it than I ever would have been without the strategies.

[AndrewT]

Playing thousands of hands, of course, will help. But rather than use trial and error, I'm looking for good strategies that I can apply. Then perhaps I can get in sussed in a few hundred hands and by the time I reach a few thousand, I'm much better at it than I ever would have been without the strategies.

Typical poker player's response to being told there are no short cuts to something - 'What's the short cut?'

[Swordpoker]

Typical poker player's response to being told there are no short cuts to something - 'What's the short cut?'

That's what I'm attempting to learn.

So come on guys....gimme your experiences.

[tikay]

Yes but im afraid we on here arent who i was talking about. I watched a Dicovery Science programme not long ago trying to use the latest technology to find which was the "best" style of martial art. They tested rection times and they had the reigning world tae-kwondo champion on there and it the test was the one where the light comes on and you have to hit it as soon as it lights up. This guy did the whole process in less than 170th of a second. Faster almost than me or anybody on here would even see the light come on. The kung fu champion came second with around 200th of a second and the karate champion in about 230th of a second. Now these times are about as fast as a human can have. So yes IMO reaction time can be developed to the very highest and fastest a human can possibly achieve.

Am I missing something here. Surely "230th of a second" is faster than "170th" of a second?  Now that would be time-distortion! Or do you mean 0.017, as opposed to 0.023?

[AndrewT]

Yes but im afraid we on here arent who i was talking about. I watched a Dicovery Science programme not long ago trying to use the latest technology to find which was the "best" style of martial art. They tested rection times and they had the reigning world tae-kwondo champion on there and it the test was the one where the light comes on and you have to hit it as soon as it lights up. This guy did the whole process in less than 170th of a second. Faster almost than me or anybody on here would even see the light come on. The kung fu champion came second with around 200th of a second and the karate champion in about 230th of a second. Now these times are about as fast as a human can have. So yes IMO reaction time can be developed to the very highest and fastest a human can possibly achieve.

Am I missing something here. Surely "230th of a second" is faster than "170th" of a second?  Now that would be time-distortion! Or do you mean 0.017, as opposed to 0.023?

Yes, it's milliseconds.

Why not have a go yourself and measure yours - http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php

My average over ten goes was 216ms.