General MTT stratedy ??

[Muahahahaha]

In my first year of poker I played mainly sngs, & I reached the stage where I'm comfortable up to $10.  ( No nosebleeds for me, thank you very much )

But recently I'm thinking I ought to be a better MTT player, so I'm putting most of my energy in trying to get better at them ( so far losing money, but the game plan is to get better - believe it or not ).

I've had limited success.  I believe I have cashed in too few to date, although I have won a couple of small $5 events.

Today I tried the fulltilt $2500 guarantee. $10 buyin & about 250 runners. Top 27 pay, but the decent money is on the final table, especially the top 3 or 4.   So it's a big tourney for me.  I've tried it once before, but I donked all my chips early, hence the TAG approach today.

The game plan was to play nice & tight, mainly from decent position.  Forget about early chip accumulation.  All the while I was within shouting distance of the ave stack, I felt comfortable - I totally ignored the top runners.

This was fine.  I was getting plenty of respect on the few hands I did play.  Although there were a couple of decent hands that I could happily have seen a bit more action with.

After the break the antes kicked in, & I fell a little too far behind average for comfort.  When the blinds were 60 /120 with 25 antes , the ave stack was 5k, & I let my stack dwindle to under 2k.

So I played push poker for a while, nicking blinds & limpers & got myself back to 3k, but the ave was now 6k.

A shortwhile later I got AA in early position.  For the first time all game I tried to slowplay it a little, but with 4 other limpers & a flop with two spades, I bet out post flop & took it down for a few more chips, but not the double up I wanted.

First question.  I haven't showed a hand all game, I've very rarely got to showdown.  Should I now show the AA, because I still need to keep busy ?

Literally a couple of hands later I'm in BB & I get AJc.  I'm immediately not happy.  Early on in the tourney I'm folding this to any sort of aggression, but I've put myself in attempted double up mentality ( IE I'm not thinking of survival any more, my first thought when I look at my cards every hand is ' Can I use these to double up - would I be ashamed to go out here ? )

Disaster.  UTG raises to 1040, leaving 900 or so behind.  Obviously he's looking for action.  I put him on a pair, but it could be anything KK - 99 or worse.  Like I just said I'd like to fold this, but I look at the pot.  Antes are now 50, & blinds 120/240.  So thats 760 chips dead money.  Plus his 2k will bring me back to ave stack, if I win.

So I call.  He shows KK.  I was hoping he'd have TT or lower so I'd have a decent 50/50 shot.  But I'm a 2/1 dog.

I lose.  And then fail to double up on my next effort & am out 52nd or 53rd.

Question 2.  Given my TAG image, should I just fold this hand ?

Question 3.  I can make a slow, but steady profit on sngs.  The potential winnings on these MTTs make the game more exciting than it's been for a while, but is there an argument that says that successful sng players don't make the transition to MTTs.  IE, should I just give up & go back to the easy life ?

Sorry it's such a long missive, thanks for taking the time if you got this far. And if you didn't - WAKE UP !!   

[dime]

I'm by no means an expert, infact I play little online poker but I do reguly play live poker tournamnets. I think firstly you should pay less attension to the average stack amount and more to your ratio of stack to blinds/antis, Harringotn givesa a far betterexplantion than I ever could but the average stack isn't all that applicable to standard tournaments as the ratio stack ratio is (first get used to calculating yours then everyone else). I'm not saying ignor the average but as Harington explains it as the average ass the "weak force" and the stack/blinds as the "strong force".

1/ I'm not a big fan of showing cards, I will do if I have a very good reason, if you think showing aces is likely to get more action then go ahead, I could be wrong but I think it will mean more caution agaisnt you not less (which is what you want presumably).

2/ I don't think this call is a great move, there are so many hands out there you are behind and so many more your either 50/50 with or along way behind. A table image has little do with your ability to call, only as other perseve you, its factored into thier thought prosess, all it means is that others will start seeing you as looser, so the image you have built up becomes erroded. Far better to use a loose TAG image to try and steal.

3/Should you play SnGs? Its a disision that only you can make, I think it depends on why you play poker. If you play it becasue you want to earn some money (either as a second income or as a pro) stick to what makes you money or set some asside to "invest" in learning a new and potentialy profitable game. If (like me) its a hobby that happens to involve money, you enjoy the challenge and if you make money at the end of the year great (that's not to say I don't strive to win and improve).

Hope this helped, let me know if you disagree with any of what I've said, this is what I belive, I want to know if I'm wrong. Cheers, good luck.

[BigTomatoes]

 Reply 1 - no harm in showing here , it might just plant a seed in their mind for the next time you make a play at a pot.
 i like to show cards in certain situations , show a bluff to annoy or confuse an oppo , show a strong hand to make them think twice , just be careful about when you chose to show

 Reply 2 - its 50/50 in my opinion , from my understanding you have about 3k , with 120/240 blinds and 50 ante , 8 handed you have less than 1 round left to make a move , given your opponent is in a similar spot ( probably worse ) he has a wide range of hands here , i would push with 10 J suited etc in his position , if you had info on the guy , for example , he was playing tighter than yourself , then you may want to fold and wait for a better spot to put your money in. but given the circumstances you cant beat yourself up too much about the call with AJ suited , you could be ahead of a lot of hands here.

 Reply 3 - If you make a profit on sngs then by all means carry on , step up a level , play more tables etc , if you want to get better at mtts why not use your profit from the sngs to play the low buyin mtts , you will have to play 10s maybe hundreds of mtts to gain valuable experience and to become a decent mtt player. so i would say its personal preference.
i dont buy in to the idea that sng players cant be good mtt players , poker is poker , it is a game at the end of the day ,
everyone has their own ideas/opinions and strategies as to how to play the game , obviously there are differences in playing sngs to mtts or even to cash games , but this doesnt mean you cant adapt to the different formats. its a bit like saying omaha players cant play NL Holdem or Razz players cant play Stud , i think any player , given enough practise/study can adapt to any game and be pretty successful in each.

 

ps. i wrote this while dime replied so if i repeat or conflict with his opinions it is by coincidence.

[MANTIS01]

OK

1st Question:

In your current position you need to encourage action. Showing a powerful hand only serves to discourage action when you come out betting next time. You don't need respect right now...you need chips. So showing a bluff in this situation is ideal. Only show power in situations where you are intending to use that credit to run a series of bluffs (eg short-handed, bubble, big-stacks + big blinds) You are currently waiting for a hand to double-up, so to show power and then wait for another big hand before playing is counter-productive.

2nd Question:

When you are looking to double up with a marginal hand you must give yourself 2 shots at winning. Your opponent folds or you win at showdown. If you play this hand you only give yourself one shot. Therefore you are limiting your chances before you even get the hands on their backs. Furthermore an UTG raise here gives you a pretty clear indication that you are behind....handicapping you still further...(pushing over the top of a button raise is more reasonable with A-J). You can see then that you are not giving yourself much of a chance to win but are simply trying to get lucky.

3rd Question:

If you play SNGs well it should be a relatively smooth transition to MTT success. In a SNG you experience all aspects of a MTT. Small antes to start...short-handed play a little later...and heads-up at the end. The only real difference is the time factors involved. Clearly though you are never going to cash anywhere near as much in bigger events so you must adjust your expectations accordingly.

However, I do think your attitude is handicapping you from the off.

You say things like "forget about early chip accumulation"....so it is no surprise that you are failing to increase your stack...and you feel like you are just hanging in there throughout.

Why not try to accumulate chips early? If you don't try and seize the initiative in these events you end up folding A-J to "any sort of aggression" early when you have chips to play with....only to push all-in with A-J (against KK) later when you don't!!

If you play a bit more earlier you wont get so desperate later.

Keep practising and your reults will improve

[Muahahahaha]

Cheers lads.

I'll reread these all again later when I have more time.

My initial feelings ( in no particular order )

I don't usually play this tight.  In sngs I quite often play the first couple of rounds looser, to see what's going on, & see if I can grab a few chips.  But when I've tried in in MTTs to date, because of the timescales, I have, in the past, frittered away too many chips in the first 20 minutes ( Eventually I'll get it right, but at least this way I get a run for my money.  Note to self - get the balance right )

I'm not much of a card showerer as a rule, and am never too sure when to go for it, so when in doubt I tend to do nothing.  I think this is probably the safest way to continue.  There are so many ig problems in my game, this can be put aside as trivial for the time being.
The reason I mentioned it was because of pushing with a lesser hand ( AJ ).  Would seeing the aces have helped Mr UTG fold ?  I don't think so.

Playing the AJ was wrong.  I was pretty sure it was wrong when I lost.  I knew as soon as I called that I'd need to improve to win, & although my stack was  a long way behind the leaders, there were still quite a few players worse off than me still, AND I'd doubled up in 15 minutes or so, without showing down a hand.

I asked the sng /mtt question because I was told that if you can play one, don't bother with the other.  But I must admit that some days I like NLHE, but I also enjoy HORSE.  In fact, I enjoy poker.  The thing with the sngs is that it's easy to keep in front financially.  How often do average / poor players have to hit the final table to keep their heads above water ?

The Harrington thing.  Is that in I or II ?  I must reread them & have a look .

Thanks again.

[Moskvich]

In your current position you need to encourage action. Showing a powerful hand only serves to discourage action when you come out betting next time.

You sure about this? You don't have long to wait for a hand. Are you not better off discouraging action, in case you need to pick up the blinds and antes with junk a couple of times? Nick them twice and you have half a double up already, and more chips to double up with if you do get a hand.

That said, I'd have thought it was risky showing AA here in any case, especially after you've just limped with it. If you're limping with AA to get action, what does an observant player think when you shove it all in with junk to pick up the blinds? Maybe that here you don't want action.

I'm not sure I like the AA limp in any case, especially as you say you've been playing push poker up to that point. I'd have thought it was maybe better to keep going in the same vein, raise your AA and hope that someone decides they've got enough to play back at you. Unless there's still a lot of limping going on at this stage, even with the blinds and antes so high, it's really suspicious. Seems to me you're just asking for bigger stacks to limp behind you and hope to flop a hand that can stack you (which seems to be what happened, only you stayed lucky and didn't get outdrawn).

The AJ I don't really like either - like you say, his raise looks like he wants action. If he'd just shoved it all in, I'd be happier about calling. Also you'll be in position in a couple of hands, so you might not even need a hand to be able to pick up the blinds and keep going.

I ain't no MTT expert, that's just a few thoughts.

[JungleCat03]

OK

1st Question:

In your current position you need to encourage action. Showing a powerful hand only serves to discourage action when you come out betting next time. You don't need respect right now...you need chips. So showing a bluff in this situation is ideal. Only show power in situations where you are intending to use that credit to run a series of bluffs (eg short-handed, bubble, big-stacks + big blinds) You are currently waiting for a hand to double-up, so to show power and then wait for another big hand before playing is counter-productive.

Sorry but I disagree with this. In his position he needs to win pots without showdowns if possible. As your stack dwindles, provided you're not playing too tight your average hand, if showndown, will be worse due to blind pressure forcing situations. Therefore fold equity is a vital tool. Having a tight image is useful here.

Whether or not you show the AA is up to you. I tend to not intentionally show very often as I'd rather not reveal information although showing it here could serve to reinforce a tight image and may be useful if you have been busy recently and want to persuade the table you have a strong starting hand requirement when in fact at just over 10 bbs you will be making a move to gain chips very soon.

2) I would fold this. Your read was that this guy would have a good hand most likely 99+ AQ+. It's a bad range to run AJc against even though, yes you do need to get chips fairly soon. Let's assume (because the figures are a bit unclear) that you have 3.5k with 240 of this in the BB.

If his range is wider than that which you beleived at 88+,AJs+,KQs,AJo+,KQo you have 41.543% equity against this with AJs. To simplify matters and make a comparison more easy let's say he has you covered here so you are playing for your stack. If you call you win 41.543% of the time in a 7620 pot. This is an average of 3165.57 chips. And you bust about 59% of the time.

Pushing a random hand on the button will win you more chips than running AJ against this range. Let's say you passed the above and now pass you sb. Left with 3.5k-240-120-50-50=3020 chips, you now push any hand on the button (again for simplicity we're assuming an unopened pot)

Let's say the sb or bb will call with any pair, any 2 broadway and any ace + K9 (22+,A2s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,A2o+,K9o+,QTo+, JTo) (their calling/folding range will alter obviosuly depending on the player, average is probably a tighter range than this)

This is the top 28% of hands so one of them will find this 56% of the time. When you get called your random hand is 38.298% against this range. 44% of the time they fold and you pick up the 500 in antes + 240 BB and 120 sb - 860 chips.

You average 3260 in chips after this move. So you win more chips and you bust 34.56%. So it's a higher ev move and the variance is lower.

The above is simplified but shows how it's much easier to find a better spot than calling AJs here even if it means closing your eyes and pushing the sb or button with a random hand.

[MANTIS01]

Sorry but I disagree with this. In his position he needs to win pots without showdowns if possible. As your stack dwindles, provided you're not playing too tight your average hand, if showndown, will be worse due to blind pressure forcing situations. Therefore fold equity is a vital tool. Having a tight image is useful here.

I think that this is a perfectly reasonable attitude to have and as usual with poker there isn't any particular strategy that is exclusively correct.

Just to explain further why I choose a different mentality....

If I am in touch with the chip leaders my priority is to maintain my chip position. I want to increase my stack steadily and don't particularly need to risk chunks of chips in marginal situations. Therefore, showing the odd powerful hand in conjunction with my chip power will cultivate respect and allow me to do this.

If I find myself in Muahahahaha's position my thought process is different. Now I only have half the average stack and am therefore out of touch with the chip leaders. Maintaining my current position or growing steadily is not as vital as getting myself in a position where I can make the final table. In the A-A example it seems the blinds and antes stand at 405 and we have a stack of 3K....with the average being 6K. We are going to have to nick an awful lot of 405 chip pots to get ourselves back in touch with the chip leaders. This is why I want to encourage action. Maintaining my current position or just edging forward is not going to help turn things around. So I need respect far less than I need action. In addition, although showing cards is a factor in acquiring respect, ultimately it is the size of your stack that is the real clincher.

I do think MoskVich raises a very good point here

That said, I'd have thought it was risky showing AA here in any case, especially after you've just limped with it. If you're limping with AA to get action, what does an observant player think when you shove it all in with junk to pick up the blinds? Maybe that here you don't want action.

Showing cards gives away information. Changing betting patterns also gives away information. There must be a very good reason to do this. So I quite agree that showing that you limp with strength only to push hard with weakness next time is not in your interests.

[JungleCat03]

Well reading from the OP, the blinds and antes at 120 240 sb and bb and 50 ante total between 760-860 depending on whether the table is 8-10 handed. With a stack of 3k, picking up 2 steals adds over 50% to your stack. This is a lot of chips that you will struggle to make by showing down a hand. If you get allin with AKs v JQs you will win on average LESS chips that this. Hence the importance of fold equity.

With the blinds and antes swelling the pot so much, stealing is vital and picking up pots unseen should be preferential to showing down hands, as you will see far fewer of these than good opportunities to steal.

[matt674]

1. Personally i virtually never show unless i have to in a showdown, keep em guessing

2. I would fold here, your TAG label is immaterial as you know you're opponent wont pass and your hoping to be a 50/50 shot though the likelyhood is your going in as an underdog.

3. Play what you feel most comfortable playing - if by playing MTT's you begin to lose the ability to make profit on STT's on a regular basis then stick to just the STT's.

With the blinds and antes swelling the pot so much, stealing is vital and picking up pots unseen should be preferential to showing down hands, as you will see far fewer of these than good opportunities to steal.

 

i mentioned stealing and showing hands on another thread from a while back

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0

[Muahahahaha]

3. Play what you feel most comfortable playing - if by playing MTT's you begin to lose the ability to make profit on STT's on a regular basis then stick to just the STT's.  At the moment I'm playing fine in the sngs up until the cash.  I've been hitting the cash with plenty of chips, and then falling apart.  Along with a little bit of cash profit, I'm just under breaking even.  But having hit a few final tables in 20 - 50 runners the bigger potential cashes gets the old adrenalin going, so the stt payouts seem a bit feeble in comparison.


i mentioned stealing and showing hands on another thread from a while back

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=5417.0  Another good thread.  Cheers.  All this stuff helps the little grey cells tick over.  If thinking alone could make me a better player, it'd be sooooo much easier.  It's putting it into practise that is harder

[matt674]

At the moment I'm playing fine in the sngs up until the cash.  I've been hitting the cash with plenty of chips, and then falling apart.  Along with a little bit of cash profit, I'm just under breaking even.  But having hit a few final tables in 20 - 50 runners the bigger potential cashes gets the old adrenalin going, so the stt payouts seem a bit feeble in comparison.

Its something that will come with practice - the more you finish in the cash the more you'll learn how to play short handed and when to change gears, hopefully this will mean more 1st place finishes.

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/3448

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/3498

http://www.blondepoker.com/index.php?q=node/3523

Being an MTT monkey - its better to leave talking about STT's to the experts!