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Author Topic: Am I Horrible For Doing this? Would you have done the same???  (Read 18362 times)
jjandellis
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« on: April 28, 2007, 11:21:49 PM »

Ok first to set the scene...

£25 F/O at Grosevnor Southampton, Wed night just gone.

Sat at the table playing away and throughout the banter, one gentleman (lets call him Bob) is quite obviously trying to build up an imag of himself as a tight, aggressive, experienced player. He is regularly doling out advice to people on how they should have played their hand and constantly telling everyone that he only plays the nuts. I don't have a problem with that, as he is obviously playing the game and even trying to be helpful. It does get a bit tiresome though, but I keep my thoughts to myself. He is also letting it be known that he knows a few people; is trying to build up his buddies image too.

Quite early in night I look down and see  . I raise to 300 (3 bb) from an early position. Everyone folds to Lady (lets call her Doris) on the cut off re-raisesto 800. Fold-fold-to BB (lets call him Beavis) who puts in a massive raise to about 2800.

I am going to the fold, but want to build up my own image. So I hum and ha and then state to the table....'I have a hand...but I dunno if I can play to this. Doris is a rock and that re-raise is rather scary'. I happen to know she is very tight. Beavis is also relatively inexperienced and gave away a massive tell.

So I folded. Doris folds, Beavis takes pot.

People ask what I laid down. I state 'Queens'. At which point Bob and a few of his mateys p*ss themselves laughing. Bob says 'I push every time in that position' and proceeds to give me a lecture. I stay cool and even have a chuckle, but after he doesn't let up I tell him that I don't think QQ is that good a hand in the situation and that its too early in the tournament to risk my life.

Beavis then inflames it all when asked what he has and says he had deuces! They all p*ss themselves laughing. I stay cool and say 'nice bluff...good luck to u playing like that'. (I've already milked all my chips from him and am v happy having him on my right). The pi*staking continues and I say something along the lines of 'well thats why I'll go deeper in this tourney than u lot'. Bob then says 'I win tournaments sunshine!'.

Jibes continue and whenever I raise the jokes come out about me having KK or AA. Very nice for me. I'm raising with all sorts of junk by now!

Beavis later confides to me that he did indeed have AA, which is a positive for me obviously.


Now to the main part of the plot....

A little later on I look down to see  in second position. Same suits as last time! This time I raise 2.5 bb to 500. All folds round to Bob in the SB. He calls. Got a read, I know he's on an Ace or King ...probably with high kicker. Bobs obviously not as good as he makes out :-) He calls. Beavis in BB folds.

Pot is 1200.

Flop comes...

 

BEAUTIFUL!

I quickly check and Bob fires in 500 chips. I call. Pot is 2200.

Turn...

 

I check, Bob puts me all in for my last 5000 or so.

Naturally I call.

Cards on their backs, Bob droans 'I've been caught out'....

He has 

Now for the juicy bit...

River comes...

 

I sit stock still trying to register what I thought I had seen.

I hear 'unlucky mate' and then see Bob saying 'yeah I got caught out'. He picks up his Ace and mucks it!!!!!

Well! All my christmases have come at once! I've escaped a bad beat, made lots of chips and have a chance for some sweet revenge on this fella!

Another players says 'No Bob...u won that with a straight!'

He says...'Oh yeah', retrieves his cards and starts to pull in the pot!

I say 'Er no. Leave those chips alone they're mine. You mucked your hand'

To which chaos lets loose! He says he only mucked one card. I tell him his hand is mucked. At which point he spews some drivel about having a similar situation recently in a card school. He stated that the cards were on their backs and everyone knew what they were. He stated that as such, he could then muck the card and take the pot. I told him that was not the case and sorry, but u muck one card your hand is mucked. I advise him to get a ruling.

He argues the toss with the card room manager who backs me up. Eventually he has to back down. He handled it ok, but was fuming (red and shaking quite a good indication??? :-) )

To compound matters, he asked me which my car was in the car park so that he could key it!!!! I then had the pleasure of him pushing all in on my blind and taking his last 5000 chips.

He disappeared under a cloud. Not very happy.

I'm pleased to say that I was able then to take most of the cacklers chips of them to take to the final table.

Justice?

Anyway....whats your thoughts on this. Would you have done the same? I believe I would not have been so stubborn over the ruling had the game been played out in a good nature prior to the incident. I might even have let it go.

Was I right to insist? Or am I a horrible nasty man?Huh???
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doubleup
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« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2007, 11:51:08 PM »


If the cards were face up at the showdown the dealer should give him the pot as the cards speak. 
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paddyjim
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« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2007, 12:07:51 AM »

Well, in my humble opinion...

Firstly, the cards are obviously face up after all the chips go in - he hits his straight and the dealer should pass him the chips

Secondly, you should just pass over your chips with good grace

so all in all I'd go for option (b) you're a horrible nasty man  Wink
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doubleup
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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2007, 02:12:20 AM »

He never announced his hand

He doesn't need to, the cards speak.  If the dealer genuinely felt that he wasn't able to determine the best hand then it is your pot, but it is the dealer's* decision. 

*I would be very surprised if a UK dealer would know what to do here and the floor manager would just hear the word "muck" and award you the pot.

NB I'm only talking about tournaments here as there are all sorts of situations that affect other players, so the pot should always be awarded to the best hand.  If this was a cash game the pot is mine and not sure what I would do, it would depend on a multitude of factors, but if I was never going to return to the cardroom I would probably keep the pot (so add me to the nasty horrible man list)
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GlasgowBandit
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« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2007, 02:44:12 AM »

I am of the opinion that if a card hits the muck its dead.
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RichD
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« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2007, 03:14:24 AM »

Indeed, if the cards hit the muck then he's mucked his hand. Your well witth your rights to do it Lee and i'm glad you did cos he sounds like a ****, how did the FT go?

Personally I wouldnt do it just cos I dont really like confrontation unless its in the pokerstars chat box Wink
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riverdave
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« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2007, 08:47:06 AM »

If he turned his cards on there backs at any point in the hand either pre river being dealt or after but before they went in the muck, and you stated they went on their backs and you also knew cards and suits so you must of seen them at some point, then the rule that cards speak in a tournament showdown situation is applicable. Therefore the wrong ruling was given and you should not have won the pot and in my opinion should of given it up like a gentleman without a fight, you did have the worst hand afterall. I have had this happen to me and every time have conceded the pot in fact often been the one to point it out to my own detriment. In a cash game i would do the same and have seen it many times, anyone at the table can point it out if the dealer misses it. No point playing if you play the game any other way just cheating IMO. If they hit the muck before they go on their backs then that really should be a dead hand.
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ariston
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« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2007, 09:58:47 AM »

Cards on their back so they speak. It is not just the responsibility of the dealer but every player on the table (including you) to say hang on he had a str8. You cant "muck" your hand as after it has been tabled it stands. You are cheating and the cardroom manager is incompetant for ruling in your favour. It is not a local rule either it is one of the first rules of poker worldwide and is in every rulebook (TDA etc), it is also meant to be a gentlemans sport so common sense and decency should have made you do the correct thing.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 10:03:21 AM by ariston » Logged

ariston

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RioRodent
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« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2007, 10:40:39 AM »

In Lee's defence I have to say that not everyone (including some TDs by the sound of it) knows the 'rule book' inside out.

If he believed his opponents hand was dead AND the floor ruled it that way then I think branding him a cheat is a bit over the top.
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snoopy1239
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« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2007, 10:59:32 AM »

I would have let him take the pot. Whether I dislike the guy or not, it's not how I want to win a competition.
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AdamM
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« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2007, 11:06:37 AM »

as already said, cards speak.

it's a terrible ruling and I'm afraid you seem to have behaved badly too. everyone knows he's sucked out on the river and he may be an idiot but it's still his pot
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iceman
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« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2007, 11:18:06 AM »

i think you were entitled to give up the pot and not ask for a ruling. however if you were ignorant of the of the rules and having asked the td for his decision he found in your favour i think its a bit harsh to say you were cheating.
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dik9
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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2007, 12:06:59 PM »

Cards on their back so they speak. It is not just the responsibility of the dealer but every player on the table (including you) to say hang on he had a str8. You cant "muck" your hand as after it has been tabled it stands. You are cheating and the cardroom manager is incompetant for ruling in your favour. It is not a local rule either it is one of the first rules of poker worldwide and is in every rulebook (TDA etc), it is also meant to be a gentlemans sport so common sense and decency should have made you do the correct thing.

Exactly
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ariston
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« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2007, 12:26:22 PM »

disagree with any of you defending on the "he didn't know the rules" argument.
he had the best hand and no matter what sort of person he is he wins the pot. Win with dignity not win at all costs. How anyone can justify taking the pot is beyond me. I have seen several instances on cash games (including me in the pots and declaring the other guys hand for him) where players table there cards not realising they have made a backdoor 3 flush or something silly- Any player who doesn't declare a hand once he's seen it and then claims a pot is a cheat in my books. He openly admits he knew the guy had hit his str8 and yet still claims the pot- sorry you're a cheat.
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ariston

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MANTIS01
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« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2007, 12:31:36 PM »

When the cards go on their backs you have reached "showdown"

If a hand has been showndown then it is no longer possible to muck. If the chips are still in the middle of the table he has every right to "claim" the live pot with the winning hand that he showed.

However, if the dealer has pushed the pot over the bet line and "awarded" it to you there is no longer a live pot to claim and it is yours to keep if you wish.

The bulk of your post centres around the atmosphere at the table and the banter that you are subjected to. Depriving your opponent of a pot he has quite rightfully won is not the best way to score points here. Personally, I would say something like...."I believe Broadway beats a set Doyle" and give him a wry smile. Yes, you don't win the pot, but hey you haven't won the pot anyway...but you do show yourself to be a fair, honest player. This gives you the moral high ground. The jibes should then stop. If they don't...just cough..."broadway" every time he opens his mouth.

Always let your play do the talking because the way you play represents the person that you are.
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