That TT hand.....

[thetank]

I've had a couple of requests to post my thoughts on a big hand that occured two tables out at last Saturday's blonde bash. I'm interested to hear people's thoughts.

Pre-flop

Blonde bash main event, £30 freezeout.
16 players left (I think), blinds 3000/6000

I'm UTG and find  I have a stack of 61.5k and make it 22k to go on dicemans blind.

UTG+1 folds

Suzanne is UTG+2 and raises all-in for 23k total.

Moskvich is UTG+3 and flat calls the 23k, he has another 37k left behind.

Another blonde (sorry, can't remeber the name) throws his last 1.5k in the mix from the cut-off.

The Button, and both blinds fold.

I call the extra 1k.



I'm very very concerned at this point as to Moskvich's flat call. From what I had seen of him 3 tables out for an hour or so, he had played very few hands, I think around about one or two a level. Those he had played, he had won by raising and re-raising. The flat call immeditely had me thinking I was up against a monster, and going into a no set/no bet shell.

I thought if he had AK, JJ, QQ or another hand strong enough to take on the raise and the call, he would move in hoping to push me off a steal.

With two players all-in, suzanne made the innocent mistake of turning her cards on their backs to reveal  .

The flop

 

Usually ideal for TT, but I'm already resigned to being up against KK+ and check hoping that Moskvich will trap check and let me catch a two-outer.
He bets all-in for 37k.

What do you do if you are me? (Don't ruin it if you were watching)

[action man]

dunno its a tricky one, Moskvich has/ should bet any hand which is infront of KJos as you have telegraphed your hand as 88 99 TT by your check on the flop, he knows you fear his flat call so he could have owt, i probably fold and give him a pat on the back if he's sensed your weakness

[Bazzaboy]

I've no idea what to make of his flat call.  Theres 55k in the pot by the time it gets to him, surely he shoves with a monster here? 

I call

[JoeStrummer]

Hes got two red queens. or maybe the  and a red queen?

[I, Zimbra]

eeeek

horrible situations like this are why I push preflop with 10xBB. What the hell do you do now?

You can call, still be ahead of mosk if he has AQ (and thinks you have nothing) and then have to dodge any A, Q, K or J for two cards.

I still call though. Probably because I'm a massive fish when I play live (as I proved on Saturday)....

[AlexMartin]

I call. If he has any PP he knows you dont have a premium pp. Pot is massive and worthy of a punt. Im expecting to see KK but ill swallow.

[thetank]

I've no idea what to make of his flat call.  Theres 55k in the pot by the time it gets to him, surely he shoves with a monster here? 

I call

Yeah, I think the pre-flop read I made was poor.

This hand highlights a mistake I often make, giving the hand that comes after a raise and a call far too much respect.


I thought about it for quite a while, suspecting like someone mentioned above that Moskvich would shove with a holding such as AK that dominates the exposed KJ. Also, if he was playing a monster strong (as per my lousy read) I doubt he would bet all the 37k on the flop. I talked about it and stared at him, trying to get a read.

I ended up calling, AK was flipped, and I immediately ran away from the table like a little girl, too scared to dodge all those overcards. 
The next two cards were dealt and I listened for any "oooooooh" from the crowd. There was none, and so I knew the 10s held.
At the time I thought it was a fantastic call as it felt very difficult, I needed to change my pre-flop read, and it turned out to be correct. In hindsight though, for the size of pot it was, perhaps it was a pretty standard and only looked good to spectators as it took 3 minutes to make.

Ignoring the result, do you guys think I should have pushed the flop rather than checking?

[temp0r]

if the KJ was not flipped and he shoved then i have to fold once i've checked. but then i doubt i would check. if he has a monster surely he'd want his chips in pre-flop given the size of the pot in relation to your 2 stacks..
i'd only check in this situation to induce such a move with AK due to an easy hand to be dominated was mistakenly flipped.

[Moskvich]

Hope tank doesn't mind me widening the scope of his thread, but I'd also be really interested in what people think I should have done here. I really wasn't concentrating as much as I should have been or thinking as clearly as I should have been about this at the time. Had Suzanne not called the raise I think I'd have just shoved it preflop in the hope of getting a 2-horse race or maybe even a fold. With the pot as big as it was though I think I've barely got any fold equity at all. I briefly thought about passing before deciding the pot was too big for that as well. So I basically ended up falling between two stools and flat calling, hoping to hit a flop and thinking that if I missed and faced a bet I could fold and shove my remaining 30-odd k in somewhere else to try to double back up. Obviously Suzanne's cards getting exposed changed the dynamic of the hand, and tank's check made me think there was a decent possibility that he had AK as well (maybe I'm even ahead of AQ) and that he can't call here if I bet. What didn't really occur to me was how strong my flat call might look (since to me, and in actual fact, it was borne of weakness rather than strength). In retrospect maybe a bet of half my remaining stack would have been a stronger move, once I've got myself into this situation.

Anyway, I still dunno, and any thoughts would be much appreciated, cheers.

[Bazzaboy]

Ignoring the result, do you guys think I should have pushed the flop rather than checking?

Check call is the best play there.  IF he has a monster he is getting your chips anyway, by shoving you give him a chance to pass AK AQ 88 99 etc.  By checking the size of the pot dictates that he will shove any hand thats beating KJ.  Bit sick if he hits on turn or river but thems the breaks.

Going back to the initial call, for me its made a lot easier by the nature of the flop.  If he was trap calling with AA pre then he is more than likely trap checking on that flop, not shoving.

[Bazzaboy]

Hope tank doesn't mind me widening the scope of his thread, but I'd also be really interested in what people think I should have done here. I really wasn't concentrating as much as I should have been or thinking as clearly as I should have been about this at the time. Had Suzanne not called the raise I think I'd have just shoved it preflop in the hope of getting a 2-horse race or maybe even a fold. With the pot as big as it was though I think I've barely got any fold equity at all. I briefly thought about passing before deciding the pot was too big for that as well. So I basically ended up falling between two stools and flat calling, hoping to hit a flop and thinking that if I missed and faced a bet I could fold and shove my remaining 30-odd k in somewhere else to try to double back up. Obviously Suzanne's cards getting exposed changed the dynamic of the hand, and tank's check made me think there was a decent possibility that he had AK as well (maybe I'm even ahead of AQ) and that he can't call here if I bet. What didn't really occur to me was how strong my flat call might look (since to me, and in actual fact, it was borne of weakness rather than strength). In retrospect maybe a bet of half my remaining stack would have been a stronger move, once I've got myself into this situation.

Anyway, I still dunno, and any thoughts would be much appreciated, cheers.

With only 10BBs its a 100% push pre for me.

[AlexMartin]

Hope tank doesn't mind me widening the scope of his thread, but I'd also be really interested in what people think I should have done here. I really wasn't concentrating as much as I should have been or thinking as clearly as I should have been about this at the time. Had Suzanne not called the raise I think I'd have just shoved it preflop in the hope of getting a 2-horse race or maybe even a fold. With the pot as big as it was though I think I've barely got any fold equity at all. I briefly thought about passing before deciding the pot was too big for that as well. So I basically ended up falling between two stools and flat calling, hoping to hit a flop and thinking that if I missed and faced a bet I could fold and shove my remaining 30-odd k in somewhere else to try to double back up. Obviously Suzanne's cards getting exposed changed the dynamic of the hand, and tank's check made me think there was a decent possibility that he had AK as well (maybe I'm even ahead of AQ) and that he can't call here if I bet. What didn't really occur to me was how strong my flat call might look (since to me, and in actual fact, it was borne of weakness rather than strength). In retrospect maybe a bet of half my remaining stack would have been a stronger move, once I've got myself into this situation.

Anyway, I still dunno, and any thoughts would be much appreciated, cheers.

Shove pre, puts him under too much pressure and he folds.