Liverpool FC

[MANTIS01]

Ok, fair enough, let's screw The Sunday Times if they can't get their figures right. The general evidence is pretty straightforward though. Liverpool have spent hundreds of millions over the last decade and are not a top 6 side, weren't a top 6 side last year under Rafa either. My whole line in this debate has been Hodgson cannot be responsible for that fundamental decline. Pointless saying any individual is responsible because it's strategic management of the club that has failed. So what strategies have been the catalyst for that decline? Hodgson playing Miereles on the right etc doesn't address that at all imo. I would suggest Benitez turning over way too many average players over a number of years diluted the prestige of playing for the club. There are deffo commitment issues and loads of non plus players coming and going is potentially responsible. Kenny comes back in and suddenly the mystique of playing for the club returns. Rafa pissing everybody off didn't help stability and growth either, I read the other day he even pissed off the club doctor who'd been there like 20yrs because he thought he knew better how to treat injuries. If Rafa's transfer dealings and bad attitude are not the issues what is responsible for the decline? I think past transfers are the issue though, Henry recognises this, and that's why he's brought Comolli in.

[byronkincaid]

Ok, fair enough, let's screw The Sunday Times if they can't get their figures right. The general evidence is pretty straightforward though. Liverpool have spent hundreds of millions over the last decade and are not a top 6 side, weren't a top 6 side last year under Rafa either. My whole line in this debate has been Hodgson cannot be responsible for that fundamental decline. Pointless saying any individual is responsible because it's strategic management of the club that has failed. So what strategies have been the catalyst for that decline? Hodgson playing Miereles on the right etc doesn't address that at all imo. I would suggest Benitez turning over way too many average players over a number of years diluted the prestige of playing for the club. There are deffo commitment issues and loads of non plus players coming and going is potentially responsible. Kenny comes back in and suddenly the mystique of playing for the club returns. Rafa pissing everybody off didn't help stability and growth either, I read the other day he even pissed off the club doctor who'd been there like 20yrs because he thought he knew better how to treat injuries. If Rafa's transfer dealings and bad attitude are not the issues what is responsible for the decline? I think past transfers are the issue though, Henry recognises this, and that's why he's brought Comolli in.

get back to the PHA board! far more entertaining than all this Rafa bollox

[boldie]

Yawn @ Rafa v Hodgson. Does anyone really still care about that silly debate? It's been going on forever FFS.

Rafa towards the end of his career at Liverpool was a disruptive influence and definitely not doing a good job.
Hodgson was the wrong choice from the start and did a crap job throughout his entire run at Liverpool.

discussion over, no?

[kinboshi]

Yawn @ Rafa v Hodgson. Does anyone really still care about that silly debate? It's been going on forever FFS.

Rafa towards the end of his career at Liverpool was a disruptive influence because of the way Hicks & Gillett (and their man Purslow) were ruining the club and last season the side underperformed (of course before that they were finishing higher, and with more points than they ever have in the Premier League).
Hodgson was the wrong choice from the start and did a crap job throughout his entire run at Liverpool.

discussion over, no?

FYP

[MANTIS01]

OK something more interesting. Just had that Gok Wan fashion dude come into my gym wanting free membership for one week. Well, his people came in first to ask. I thought yeah ok why not. So I've got Gok Wan working out in my gym at the moment. Bit of a scruffy bastard if you ask me.

[kinboshi]

OK something more interesting. Just had that Gok Wan fashion dude come into my gym wanting free membership for one week. Well, his people came in first to ask. I thought yeah ok why not. So I've got Gok Wan working out in my gym at the moment. Bit of a scruffy bastard if you ask me.

Wrong thread.  Start a diary

[byronkincaid]

OK something more interesting. Just had that Gok Wan fashion dude come into my gym wanting free membership for one week. Well, his people came in first to ask. I thought yeah ok why not. So I've got Gok Wan working out in my gym at the moment. Bit of a scruffy bastard if you ask me.

Wrong thread.  Start a diary

+1 would love to read a mantis diary

[kinboshi]

OK something more interesting. Just had that Gok Wan fashion dude come into my gym wanting free membership for one week. Well, his people came in first to ask. I thought yeah ok why not. So I've got Gok Wan working out in my gym at the moment. Bit of a scruffy bastard if you ask me.

Wrong thread.  Start a diary

+1 would love to read a mantis diary

Would be one of the best. 

[pleno1]

OK something more interesting. Just had that Gok Wan fashion dude come into my gym wanting free membership for one week. Well, his people came in first to ask. I thought yeah ok why not. So I've got Gok Wan working out in my gym at the moment. Bit of a scruffy bastard if you ask me.

Wrong thread.  Start a diary

+1 would love to read a mantis diary

[boldie]

OK something more interesting. Just had that Gok Wan fashion dude come into my gym wanting free membership for one week. Well, his people came in first to ask. I thought yeah ok why not. So I've got Gok Wan working out in my gym at the moment. Bit of a scruffy bastard if you ask me.

Wrong thread.  Start a diary

+1 would love to read a mantis diary

Would be one of the best. ones that ramble on forever and ever.

FYP

[kinboshi]

Offiside?  Do us a favour, love.

[Bongo]

Disgraceful! Sack boshi IMO!

[The Baron]

Certain aspects of this are true. But if you're sacking Rafa for one sixth of his management era being bad then Roy deserved to go also.

Ok, fair enough, let's screw The Sunday Times if they can't get their figures right. The general evidence is pretty straightforward though. Liverpool have spent hundreds of millions over the last decade and are not a top 6 side, weren't a top 6 side last year under Rafa either. My whole line in this debate has been Hodgson cannot be responsible for that fundamental decline. Pointless saying any individual is responsible because it's strategic management of the club that has failed. So what strategies have been the catalyst for that decline? Hodgson playing Miereles on the right etc doesn't address that at all imo. I would suggest Benitez turning over way too many average players over a number of years diluted the prestige of playing for the club. There are deffo commitment issues and loads of non plus players coming and going is potentially responsible. Kenny comes back in and suddenly the mystique of playing for the club returns. Rafa pissing everybody off didn't help stability and growth either, I read the other day he even pissed off the club doctor who'd been there like 20yrs because he thought he knew better how to treat injuries. If Rafa's transfer dealings and bad attitude are not the issues what is responsible for the decline? I think past transfers are the issue though, Henry recognises this, and that's why he's brought Comolli in.

[The Baron]

My kind of propaganda!

Roy Hodgson describes his approach to coaching as “a form of brainwashing”. Players need to un-learn all their previous habits and adopt the Hodgson way. We saw much dubious evidence of Liverpool players un-learning their best habits under him, standing off when they would have pressed, hitting long balls when they could have played it short, but little evidence that his methods improved them. He may, however, have had some success with brainwashing in another area – that of the British football media.

Hodgson’s appointment at Liverpool was widely welcomed by pundits, while receiving a lukewarm response from many fans. As results started badly and then got worse, there was almost a stand-off between the fans and many of the pundits. “It’s not Roy’s team,” opined Andy Gray. “The fans live in cloud cuckoo land,” said Martin Samuel. “”Rafael Benitez left a poor squad,” insisted Henry Winter and Patrick Barclay.

The supporters, who had seen Benitez dismissed after the team’s unacceptable performance in finishing 7th, stared on in disbelief as the man meant to steady the ship set it on course for the lower half of the table, just above the relegation zone. The football was the worst seen at Anfield for 60 years and the results were the worst since Liverpool were last relegated. Players who had looked top class a year ago looked tired, dispirited and lacking in any confidence whatsoever. Yet the supporters’ chants for Kenny Dalglish were mocked as deluded or attacked as disloyal to the ‘Liverpool Way’ (which Hodgson was actually in the process of jettisoning).

When Hodgson was finally dismissed and Dalglish took over, many of these pundits suggested it was like changing the captain on the Titanic. If Roy Hodgson, the LMA manager of the year, couldn’t get the best out of the players, then nor could a man who hadn’t managed a football club this decade. The owners had “called the supporters’ bluff”, one said. When Liverpool lost at Blackpool, they were falling over themselves in their eagerness to claim proof that “it wasn’t Roy’s fault”. This after Kenny Dalglish had been in post 5 days, during which Liverpool had played two games and he and Steve Clarke had had virtually no  time to work with the players in training.  A hectic Merseyside derby that ended 2-2 drew a similar response , the improved performance  was ignored by many in the rush to continue to exonerate Roy.

Fast forward a week and Liverpool – with one streaky away win all season to date – visited Wolves. Dalglish and Clarke have worked with the players and it shows. They run out 3-0 winners after arguably their best performance of the season, full of passing, movement, pressing and verve. Given that a 1-0 defeat at home to the same side – with Steven Gerrard  – hastened Hodgson’s end less than a month earlier, the contrast was there for all to see.

This is not to say Dalglish has solved all the problems – that would be a ridiculous claim based on one game. But what was clear was that the ‘brainwashing ‘had worn off, the players were performing to their potential again, actually passing the ball even in tight positions and looking hungry and determined to win from the outset. They also played like a Liverpool team. Roy Hodgson did not manage to get them to do this. Whether appointing Dalglish was the right move remains to be seen, but what is clear is that appointing Hodgson was not. Saturday proved the case against him conclusively.

Yet still the brainwashed pundits will not accept it. The players didn’t try for Roy, we’re told. The crowd didn’t get behind him. He must be furious when he sees the effort put in now. Do people really believe this? They don’t think that tactics or the ability to inspire and motivate are a factor in how a football team plays? (If they aren’t, why bother having a manager at all?) Why would professionals not try to win? There is a difference between Fernando Torres being disillusioned at being isolated and chasing long balls into the channels and Torres having given up the ghost.

And I recall the fans getting massively behind the team at the start of the season and continuing to do so as it went on. Sure, they didn’t chant Roy’s name, but nor did they chant the names of Houllier or Benitez when they arrived – they waited until they had achieved something first. The suggestion that Liverpool fans usually support the manager with  blind loyalty and devotion from day one, whoever he is and whatever he does, is crass. If Neil Warnock rolled up tomorrow as Liverpool manager, fans would not be delighted or singing his name. In the unlikely event that he did the job well, they would. But they’d always support the team and always have.

As even the transfer targets change from Carlton Cole and Robert Huth to players more in the Liverpool tradition, there is a sense of relief that Hodgson was not given the budget to embed his approach further. This team was always better than its results this season; not title quality but certainly one of the top six squads in the country. Some pundits are quietly coming to accept that Roy was the wrong man, but others continue to rant that others were to blame – the players, the fans, even that old scapegoat Benitez.  It’s a relief that Roy’s brainwashing is starting to wear off the squad, but perhaps for some of the pundits, it will prove permanent.

[kinboshi]

Who's that from Aaron?

Good piece.