Rasing Question (following a ruling)

[dik9]

Just wondered if a few people could give me their take on this ruling last night. It didn't have any significance on my game so there's no story to go with it, but I've now heard two different rulings on it and am not sure whats right.

This is what happened...

Ok, so blinds 150/300. One guy double the bet to 600. It passes round to the BB and he annouces raise.

What is the minimum he can raise?



It was ruled he could actually raise 300 on top, so it was 300 for him to call with 300 more on top for 900 bet in total.


Both players had plenty of chips by the way, so they weren't moving all-in.


Like I say, no huge argument to solve and there was no significance to this, but I'd like to see what the correct way of doing this is for future reference. (not that I can ever see a sitation where I want to go 600 with 300 but anyway...)

THIS IS CORRECT

[BlueWolf]

e.g  UTG makes it 400 to go (the min-raise), next player now chooses to make it 800 to play.  The minimum bet increment has now increased to 400, so the next player to act would then have to make it 1200 to go as a min-raise.

button
player 1  bets 400
player 2  400 to call therefore minimum raise 400    800 total
player 3  800 to call therefore minimum raise 800   1600 total
player 4 feels lucky raises to 4000

player 1 He cant beleive people are betting into his quads and wants to reraise it is 3600 to call therefore minimum raise is 3600  7200 total

and so on.

Are you playing limit??

is it me or does this sound wrong???

is this the same?

player 1 bets 400
player2 reraises to 800 total (400 with the minimum 400) as you cant call and raise it impossible you do one or the other
player 3 rereraises to 1200 (400 with 400 with the minimum 400)
player 4 rerere raises to 2000 total (400 with 400 with 400 with 800)

there fore any further raises must be at least 800 ie player 1 would need to go 4 with 4 with 4 with 8 with 8 surely???

sorry boss hope this aint made you look wrong hehehe


oh and after chattin with the ever pleasant malc-m (who is now my favourite player as he said i'm wise hehehe) about the check raising issue i agree he should have the right to be able to reraise the big stack unfortunately some clubs will not allow this as nightfly states they can in Notts

[Sheriff Fatman]

player 1  bets 400
player 2  400 to call therefore minimum raise 400    800 total
player 3  800 to call therefore minimum raise 800   1600 total
player 4 feels lucky raises to 4000

player 1 He cant beleive people are betting into his quads and wants to reraise it is 3600 to call therefore minimum raise is 3600  7200 total

and so on.

Are you playing limit??

No, I just disagree with your interpretation.

I stand by my post.

Sheriff

[Sheriff Fatman]

Just wondered if a few people could give me their take on this ruling last night. It didn't have any significance on my game so there's no story to go with it, but I've now heard two different rulings on it and am not sure whats right.

This is what happened...

Ok, so blinds 150/300. One guy double the bet to 600. It passes round to the BB and he annouces raise.

What is the minimum he can raise?



It was ruled he could actually raise 300 on top, so it was 300 for him to call with 300 more on top for 900 bet in total.


Both players had plenty of chips by the way, so they weren't moving all-in.


Like I say, no huge argument to solve and there was no significance to this, but I'd like to see what the correct way of doing this is for future reference. (not that I can ever see a sitation where I want to go 600 with 300 but anyway...)

THIS IS CORRECT

OK, now I'm confused, dik9.  Phil's post is consistent with mine, which you said was incorrect.  I disagreed with your alternative example.

The ruling as applied above is consistent with what I said, and is different to your example, so basically you're now agreeing with me.

Sheriff

[Sheriff Fatman]

is it me or does this sound wrong???

is this the same?

player 1 bets 400
player2 reraises to 800 total (400 with the minimum 400) as you cant call and raise it impossible you do one or the other

The minimum raise here is not 400, its 200.  The first player bet 400, which was a raise of 200 above the big blind.  The minimum bet for the next player is 600 to go.  However, in my example he chooses to make it 800, thus changing the size of the minimum bet increment for that round.

Sheriff

[BlueWolf]

ahahaha mr Fatman in my example i made no comment about a BB being included did i? my situation was player a bets 400 not 200 with 200, so thus making the minimum raise 400 does it not?

the minimum raise must always be EITHER the ammount of the BB OR an ammount equal to the last raise made in that betting round

[Sheriff Fatman]

ahahaha mr Fatman in my example i made no comment about a BB being included did i? my situation was player a bets 400 not 200 with 200, so thus making the minimum raise 400 does it not?

But unless this is some weird game, there will be a small blind and big blind already in the pot.  Therefore a bet of 400 here represents a raise of only 200.  You have to consider the blinds in the hand.

To put it another way, if this player wanted to limp, it would cost him 200 to do so.  Consequently a bet of 400 represents a raise of only 200.  Therefore, the next player could then make it 600 to go as the last raise made in the round is still only 200.

the minimum raise must always be EITHER the ammount of the BB OR an ammount equal to the last raise made in that betting round

This is entirely consistent with what I said in my original post.

Sheriff

[BlueWolf]

well not really  a weird kinda game at all maybe all the action in my stated situation occurs after the flop??? maybe i should have stated that i was just using it as an example instead of commenting on the actions previously described n this very confusimng post

[Sheriff Fatman]

My assumption was that this was a pre-flop betting round as dik9's original post referred to my example which did include blinds.  It would have made more sense if you'd stated that you were talking about post-flop rounds as my example clearly was not.

If this was a subsequent betting round then you're exactly right.  The first bet of 400, if made post-flop, is then the minimum raise for subsequent action on that round.  However, the player making that bet did not have to bring it in for 400.  He would still have been able to bet 200 if he'd wanted to.

As far as I can see, we understand the rules to be the same here.

Sheriff

[dik9]

ahahaha mr Fatman in my example i made no comment about a BB being included did i? my situation was player a bets 400 not 200 with 200, so thus making the minimum raise 400 does it not?

the minimum raise must always be EITHER the ammount of the BB OR an ammount equal to the last raise made in that betting round

LOL Is this what I not said?

The start of the thread asked what was the minimum raise for the big blind after an already made minimum raise.

As you said Bluewolf, somewhere along the thread it seemed the first round of betting got lost, hence my example. How else would he have quads  

[AndrewT]

ahahaha mr Fatman in my example i made no comment about a BB being included did i? my situation was player a bets 400 not 200 with 200, so thus making the minimum raise 400 does it not?

the minimum raise must always be EITHER the ammount of the BB OR an ammount equal to the last raise made in that betting round

Bluewolf, in your post you said:

player 1 bets 400
player2 reraises to 800 total

For player 2 to reraise, then there must have been an original bet, then a raise. Therefore Player 1's 400 must have been a raise, which suggests this was pre-flop with blinds in play.

[Sheriff Fatman]

I think the last few posts have muddied the waters again in this thread, after I thought I'd made a (vaguely, at least) clear post with a correct interpretion.  Consequently, I think we need a new example across a full hand to combine what both I and BlueWolf were saying.

In the hand below, I've described the action showing what the minimum bet is and then describing what the player actually does.  To keep things simple this hand has only 4 players at the table.

Blinds 100/200.

Player 1 posts SB of 100
Player 2 posts BB of 200.
Minimum bet increment is initially equal to the BB of 200.
Action on Player 3: Min-raise would be a raise of 200, making it 400 to go.  Player 3 opts to min-raise.  Minimum bet increment remains 200.
Action on Player 4: Min-raise would be a raise of 200, making it 600 to go.  Instead, Player 4 opts to make it 1000 to go, being a raise of 600.  The minimum bet increment is now 600 for subsequent action.

Action on Player 1: Min-raise would be a raise of 600, making it 1600 to go.  Instead, Player 1 calls the 1000 bet, putting in an additional 900 to do so.
Action on Player 2: Min-raise would be a raise of 600, making it 1600 to go.  Instead, Player 2 calls the 1000 bet, putting in an additional 800 to do so.
Action on Player 3: Min-raise would be a raise of 600, making it 1600 to go.  Instead, Player 3 calls the 1000 bet, putting in an additional 600 to do so, thus ending the round.

A flop is dealt.  Every player is so focused on their betting that they don't even notice the cards.  The pot is 4,000.

The initial minimum bet increment reverts back to the size of the big blind, 200.
Action on Player 1: Min-bet would be the size of the big blind, 200.  Instead, Player 1 bets 400.  Minimum bet increment is now 400 for this round.
Action on Player 2: Min-raise would be a raise of 400, making it 800 to go.  Player 2 min-raises to 800.  Minimum bet increment is still 400.
Action on Player 3: Min-raise would be a raise of 400, making it 1200 to go.  Instead, Player 3 opts to make it 2000 to go, being a raise of 1200.  Minimum bet increment is now 1200 for this round.

Action on Player 4: Min-raise would be a raise of 1200, making it 3200 to go.  Instead, Player 4 calls the 2000.
Action on Player 1: Min-raise would be a raise of 1200, making it 3200 to go.  Instead, Player 1 calls the 2000, putting in 1600 to do so.
Action on Player 2: Min-raise would be a raise of 1200, making it 3200 to go.  Instead, Player 2 calls the 2000, putting in 1200 to do so, thus ending the round.

A turn card is dealt.  Each player is so busy calculating the min-raise that no-ones spots that its the 2nd Ace of Diamonds to be put onto the board!  The pot is now 12,000.

Action on Player 1: The minimum bet would again be the big blind of 200 so its the same scenario as on the flop.

Everyone checks (to keep it simple).  The scenario on the river is exactly the same.

Hopefully this breaks it down enough to explain everything.  Sorry its repetitive but I think its required here.

Sheriff

[dik9]

This is where I am confused, If player 4 just wants to call its 400 right?

So shouldn't his minimum raise be 400? making it 800 total

player one (sb) to call needs to make it 700 to call

player 2 (bb) needs to call 600 if the bb wants to minimum reraise then its a total of 1200 to him.

[Sheriff Fatman]

This is where I am confused, If player 4 just wants to call its 400 right?

So shouldn't his minimum raise be 400? making it 800 total

But the 400 to call in this case is the result of 2 separate 'bets' (one of which is the initial big blind).  Consequently the size of the bet hasn't changed on this round yet.

Using your interpretation, which looks at the pot size rather than the last bet made, player 4 would be unfairly penalised for the fact that he's had to act after 2 players.  No-one has yet increased the minimum bet size, so why should he have to at this stage?

player one (sb) to call needs to make it 700 to call

player 2 (bb) needs to call 600 if the bb wants to minimum reraise then its a total of 1200 to him.

In my example, player 1 has so far put a small blind of 100 into the pot when the action returns to him.  He's now facing the raise of player 4 who made it 1000 to go.  Consequently, to call he has to put in 900 chips as stated.

Similarly, player 200 already has 200 invested.  So it costs him 800 more to match player 4's bet.  Player 4's bet of 1000 was a raise of 600 from the previous bet.  Consequently, neither player 1 or 2 can now make a raise of less than this amount.  Consequently, they would need to match the 1000 bet and put in at least 600 more.

Sheriff

[dik9]

Sheriff, I have got to go to work but I have just read your example again, and its completely done me in!!!

WHATEVER IT IS TO CALL APART FROM THE SMALL BLIND IS THE MINIMUM YOU CAN RAISE OR RERAISE!!
when the dealer tells you how much you have to put in the pot, that is the minimum raise.

If not apart from under raising and small blinds.....I resign......Bluewolf I feel a promotiom already!!