British and Christian and Proud

[kinboshi]

Interesting, if not a little macabre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll

This is slightly concerning:

At the end of 2004 over 23 Million had died of AIDS .
Estimates of the number of deaths in 2004 were from 2.8 to 3.5 Million.
According to estimates from the UNAIDS/WHO AIDS Epidemic Update (December 2004), 37.2 million adults and 2.2 million children were living with HIV at the end of 2004.

During 2004, some 4.9 million people became infected with the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), which causes AIDS.

The % of HIV infections which are women ranges from 20% in N. America to 55% in Africa.

At the beginning of 2003 over 42 Million were infected with HIV, 29 Million of those were in sub-saharan Africa. 36% of the adult population in Swaziland and Botswana are infected and up to 25% of the population of Zimbabwe are infected.
There were from 2.8 - 3.5 M deaths worldwide and 15,000 US deaths in 2004. The US deaths are down from 49,351 in 1995.

Antiretroviral (ARV) therapy, which reduced AIDS-related deaths in the richer countries. US deaths droped from 49,351 in 1995 to 15,000 in 2004.

Source: Joint UN Programme on HIV/AIDS (UNAIDS)

...and how much of this is attributable to the catholic church's stance on the use of condoms?  Even 'benign' and moderate religious policies can cause suffering and death on a wide scale.

 

[Geo the Sarge]

Hmmm, people killed in the name of science? Off the top of my head I can think of very few. People deliberately exposed to radiation in the atomic bomb tests? That's all I can think of. Perhaps FlyingPig could provide a list of the examples he's obviously researched.

Andrew,

People have been dying in the name of science for many, many years. Long before the 18 hundreds when Burke & Hare would kill local people in Edinburgh to sell their bodies to the local medical schools in aid of "medical research".

In the 60's it is reckoned that scientists actually infected an Amazon Indian tribe to test some race theory that led to thousands being killed: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,372067,00.html#article_continue

I am sure if I had the time to search 'tinternet there would be many more examples.

Porton Down the Army science research place near Salisbury has been the main testing place for all sorts of chemical/nerve agents and there effects. There are reported incdents of deaths there, however as much of it from 1916 onwards has been kept so secret numbers are difficult to obtain, however I'd hate to think of the effects this "testing" has had on decendants of the volunteers that took part over the years.

Am not saying that science has been responsible for more deaths than religion or vice versa, only that we cannot tell as figures relating to the science related deaths are so hard to find compared to the widespread knowledge of killings done in the name of religion.

I am an Athiest btw, however feel that anyone who has a belief that gives them comfort should be free to do so, but ask that they don't ram it down my throat as to why I should think otherwise.

geo

[Acidmouse]

Please take time to watch this on You tube, its a very interesting take on the Catholic church and their take on Abortion and HIV amoungst other things.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LStcajxvb_E

[AdamM]

good stuff

this is relevant too.
Dawkins on morals and religion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJLqDSfv6dU&mode=related&search=

[Muahahahaha]

There is no denying that the church have created so many bad things over the years, but so has man and science. They both have killed groups of people in the past.

I'd like to see the Church versus Science kill ratio. Did the Church invent the atomic bomb ?

Start to think about the good things that Christianity has brought about. In years gone by, it has brought morals, and a certain way of life which was imposed by the social structure at the time. This has undoubtedly helped in the past when things may of not been so good. There are countless times when people have turned to the churches in times of help, and guess what, they have helped. They have provided help, hope, money, and much much more.

The bible is a bit ambiguous on morals, the Old Testament shows God to advocate ethic cleansing, slavery and prostitution among other things.Are you saying non christian countries have less morals than the early christians? The old testament isn't truly a christian document.  Christian = following Christ.  The old testament is pre christ.  Just a small point, but most modern Christians of my aquantance ( admitedly a very small statistical base ) believe that one of the main reasons for the coming of christ was because man interpreted the word of God too literally and Christ taught us that religion should help guide us to lead a better life, and shouldn't just be used as a set of rules, meaning we can just pass the buck when things go tits up.  Most problems on Earth are created by man, it's up to us to sort them out.
where do buddists and sikhs for example get their morals from? Hopefully from their own religious beliefs, readings and teachings.  The modern world is much more multicultural than it's ever been.  If someone believes in a different god to me, but has similar moral beliefs, I can still call him 'brother'.  Jesus taught us to love each other.  I would prefer to spend time with someone of a different religion, but similar belief, than a radical christian.
I agree churches provide comfort for their worshippers in times of emotional need, but I can get that from my family and close friends should the need arise.  Good.  Some people don't have that luxury.  Who are we to condemn them for that ?

Its all belief and respecting others beliefs. I respect the fact that people take a leap of faith and believe that we are here of our own accord, and a chain reaction of events have got us here, and this is still a belief system. Where if you believe this, you cannot be superstitious of things, and most human beings are superstitious of some things by nature. I believe that there is a God, and my belief system should be respected.

On a personal level I respect peoples right to believe whatever they wish .
I'm open minded as to how we got here, I know what I don't believe rather than what what I do.
I know the bible is hypocritical, contradictory and chronologically incorrect so thats why I choose not to believe it but the scriptures say I'm going to an eternal fiery abyss for my sins, how can I respect an organisation that says that?  I hope I put my case about this up there.  I had a science lesson when I was at school.  We were shown a tv program where a scientist tried to explain about the beginning of the universe ( Big Bang, or whatever the theory was called at the time - it was a very long time ago now )  He went on to say that science had helped him become a Christian.  He could probe further and further back explaining where we came from, but at some point there has to be a ' But what happened before that?' question that cannot be answered.  That's where he, personally, put God.  It was 30 odd years ago I saw that, but I've yet to see a rational theory that counters that in my mind. Like I said earlier, many modern Christians dont use words that are thousands of years old to explain exactly how we should live life to the letter in the modern world.  I think we should try to use our own brains and hearts as well.

[Muahahahaha]

Surely this thread is coming to its end..... I feel like I am the God squad.......

Part of me wants to wait until this thread has died, wait three days, then resurrect it.   One of the problems of being a scientist is not having enough imagination    But it's good to see a scientist with a sense of humour

Christmas and Easter are Christian festivals. These dates may of been chosen to co-incide with a calender at some point in time...But these are events to celebrate christian events. You can celebrate the pagan festivals if you so wish. But me thinks you will still probably celebrate Christian ones.

...

Its all belief and respecting others beliefs.

Except where those beliefs are 'I believe I don't celebrate Christianity when I get time off work in December/Spring'. In those situations, FlyingPig tells us what we really think.  One of the advantages of having religious beliefs is that one finds it less and less necessary to tell other people what they should, or shouldn't be doing.  I mean, if you need me to tell you right from wrong it's already a bit late for you.  Hell may be a demonic pit where you will spend the rest of eternity, or it may just be a dark place in the deeper recesses of your mind.  Either way, I prefer not to go there.  What do you celebrate at Christmas, if not the love of mankind ?

There is no denying that the church have created so many bad things over the years, but so has man and science. They both have killed groups of people in the past.

Hmmm, people killed in the name of science? Off the top of my head I can think of very few. People deliberately exposed to radiation in the atomic bomb tests? That's all I can think of. Perhaps FlyingPig could provide a list of the examples he's obviously researched.  Man killing man is wrong in any name.  If you think the scale of deaths is relevant, then again, I beg to differ.  Admittedly most wars are fought in the name of religion.  But they are not fought by people of faith, they are fought by people of ferver.  I can't help them, emotionally, physically , or in matters of faith.  Man's ability to continuously invent more efficient ways of killing himself is, in my mind, firmly put at the door of science.  The human brain is such a wonderful thing, I find it sad that we should find it necessary to misuse it so effectively.

 

[kinboshi]

Did the Church invent the atomic bomb?

No.  But it didn't invent treatments for cancer, antibiotics, transplant operations, heart by-pass surgery, the contraceptive pill, etc.  Science asks the questions and tries to find answers.  Religion blocks and stifles questioning, advancement and a greater understanding.

Also, AIDS in Africa has killed far more people than the atomic bomb.  Millions of people could have been saved from suffering and death through something as simple as a condom.  Unfortunately, it's not science that is the problem there.

I had a science lesson when I was at school.  We were shown a tv program where a scientist tried to explain about the beginning of the universe ( Big Bang, or whatever the theory was called at the time - it was a very long time ago now )  He went on to say that science had helped him become a Christian.  He could probe further and further back explaining where we came from, but at some point there has to be a ' But what happened before that?' question that cannot be answered.  That's where he, personally, put God.  It was 30 odd years ago I saw that, but I've yet to see a rational theory that counters that in my mind. Like I said earlier, many modern Christians dont use words that are thousands of years old to explain exactly how we should live life to the letter in the modern world.  I think we should try to use our own brains and hearts as well.

If god is some complex being that created the universe (which I guess is what you're saying), then where did he come from?  If something as wonderful and amazing as the universe needs a creator, then this someone as wonderful and amazing as the god who created it would also need to come from somewhere.  You haven't answered any question here - you've just moved the goalposts.  It isn't a rational theory at all - it's merely saying "I don't know the answer, therefore it must be something supernatural."  The same for those who argue against evolution - they often don't understand it at all. 

[AdamM]

and assuming you're not literal creationists, if we are the pinacle of a divine plan how come the planet has been here 4 billion years and it took til a few million years for us to arrive?

[Bongo]

One of the advantages of having religious beliefs is that one finds it less and less necessary to tell other people what they should, or shouldn't be doing. 

Unless you're the Catholic Church? 

[AdamM]

or the mormons, jehovahs witnesses, Bethesda Evangelist, 7th day adventists...

[kinboshi]

God can do anything. 
God made the earth. 
Then god made night and day. 
Then a few days later god made the sun and the other stars. 
Then God made man. 
God gave man free will. 
Man sinned. 
God got angry. 
God punished man with 'original sin'. 
God persecutes man for thousands of years. 
God decides to save man by making himself into a human and appearing on earth. 
God then gets his human form killed so that he can please himself and free man from original sin. 
God then helps his human form to rise from the dead and appear to a few of his mates. 
God then makes his human form ascend (not sure where to though). 
God then wants all of mankind to obey what was written about this episode and can't be bothered to show himself to make it any more obvious to the billions who have been born since, instead we're meant to have faith.

[fearisthekey]

and assuming you're not literal creationists, if we are the pinacle of a divine plan how come the planet has been here 4 billion years and it took til a few million years for us to arrive?

god was trying out various ideas, giraffes n stuff

ps. there was no time before the Big Bang. It's not a time or space where the universe popped out from, its time/space itself starting. Meaningless to talk of God being what existed before then. How could God have been, or acted, before then? He would exist in this meaningless, timeless void.
Religion is science for people that don't get stuff.
I repeat what I said before: people don't need the *truth* they need *answers*, people of all ages have been religious cos they always just wanted an answer. Never do you read of a religious group living in xxxx BC who went 'well, we were gonna worship this river god and then build a tower and smoke some horse droppings in his honour, but then we realised it may just be a whole crock of crap that one of us just made up' because the myth does its job: it fills in that answer.
Science is exactly the same, except that it brings on board repeatability and accountability, strangely lacking in mainstream religion.
I love it when people talk about 'reconciling science and religion' or the 'great science vs religion debate', as if they are on a par with each other.

[ifm]

How can you chalk deaths down to science or religion?
You could argue that anyone killed by a gun or explosive or by poisonous gas even in religious wars is down to science, what about death by sword in the name of god using steel purified by scientific process??
Equally by religion because that guy was shot, blown up, poisoned or stabbed because it was Pope Pius the 15th that ordered it.
You can say that AIDS would never have become a pandemic if folks used condoms but also that if men hadn't laid down with men it wouldn't have happened either??

[Snatiramas]

But what did any of it have to do with football

[fearisthekey]

But what did any of it have to do with football

some people think Henrik Larsson is the Son of God