The "How To" series, part 1. Donking off a Monster Stack.

[tikay]

The Scottish Open £500 Freezeout, 2 day comp, 10k starting stack, 85 runners.

Blinds are 200-400, average is around 15k. I have 24k.

I limp in mid-pos with....

  ,

all pass to th BB, "Steph", an old mate, we've done a few Sporting Odds gigs together, he makes a very good living playing Online Cash, is highly aggressive & fearless.

We see this flop.

 

He bets 1k into the 1,200 Pot.

Well, this is the flop I called to see, I ain't having that, so  go 1k with another 3k. GO AWAY STEPH.

He umms & arrs, then.......moves all-in for 15k more!

What? WHAT?

Well, let's have a think,

No pre-flop Raise, so it must be 2 pair, or a big flush draw. Two Pair, methinks.

What to do here? I can let go, & still be average chips. No problem, the easy option. And I've come a long way for this Tourney, why bust early on a draw? And, I know, I don't have the odds to call.

Then again, think what I could do with a 40k+ stack........

So I mull it over. I'm running well at the mo in Live and Online comps, stepped up the aggression a few notches. (not hard for me.....), what a lovely opportunity to pretty well guarantee running deep.

Against that, I tend to make a lot of Finals by dodging confrontation, picking easy spots, shying away from big pots, so I make oodles of Finals but usually as Billy Low Stack, with shed-loads of 8ths & 9ths prior until this year, when I have "run good".

I usually make my decisions almost instantly, & rarely dwell up, (except for effect) but this was a tickler. A player not in the hand then called "time" on me, which I must admit, irked me a little, it really was a dilemma for me. Death, or glory. Steph protested, "give him time, it's a toughie".

Eventually, I got him nailed on 2 pair, (just possibly a big flush draw which'd be Christmas) & decide to do the daft thing, & call.  And yes, he had 2 pair, I missed, & that was that really, I chucked the shrapnel in next hand with 6-2 & bade everyone farewell.

So, we know it's mathematically a bad call. And my game is about dodging confrontation, not meeting it head on. I major in "orphan" pots, easy steals, keeping pots small, patience. And I can Pass & still be Average.

But with 45k, I could not, all things being equal, fail to Final, & instead of my usual back-of-the-field low stack grinding, I could maybe dance a little.

And yes, "better spot" springs to mind, for sure.

Taking everything into account, was I right to "gamble" rather than patiently try & build a stack, as a sensible grown-up would?

Oh, & yes - what was the WORST error? Limping pre-flop, of course. A little R would have killed the hand there & then. Suited Aces get me in so much trouble, I'm gonna ban them.

Step aside Flushy, we have a new champion donkeroffer.

[The Camel]

I don't like the limp much. You've got a big stick and you should be weilding it. Steal those blinds.

But I REALLY don't like the raise on the flop. A pretty big stack has led out into the chip leader. He hasn't got air, that's for sure. The stack sizes are inviting an allin after your raise. I think a call is the right move. It controls the size of the pot and puts the fear of god into 2 small pair.

[Royal Flush]

I am with Keith i pretty much never raise the flop here, flat call and control the pot, if he has a hand that will fold to a flop raise you can take him off it when he slows on the turn.

Personally i don't mind the limp that much as long as if its checked to you, you fire out 100% of the time on the flop.

[tikay]

Thanks guys.

Taking your suggestion, if I just flat call the Flop Bet, it plays very different - as I missed the Turn, if he fires again, I now let go, or even if he bets, say, 3k, I might consider a call, but with 1 card now to come, I deffo don't push. And I exit the hand with a 16k or 17k stack.

"The morning after" I'm regretting it big-time, a great opportunity thrown away.

[TheChipPrince]

This almost sounds like a call in an online game! When you know you shouldnt call, but that 'all-in' button is screaming at you!!

[TightEnd]

I like pot control on the flop too by calling...betting the turn if he checks to take the pot away

as it happens with two pair he bets the turn too and you can get away, not too much damage done

[AlexMartin]

 Firstly, i hate the limp. You project no strength and have no control over the pot. I dont like it at all on that flop HU. If you call and your mircale spade hits, he is good, so wont pay you off anyway. If you are determined to play it, just call and play small ball, bearing in mind that you are praying he alos has a spade draw.


After not raising preflop, i dont like compounding the error. He's betting 1000 into 1.2k, let him have it.

[MANTIS01]

Tikay

I think the most important aspect of this hand is context.

The suited ace can flop the nuts, or more often, a draw to the nuts, and this is the appeal of playing it. However, as with any hand in poker, it can be played out a hundred different ways dependent upon the situation.

Here it looks like you have played the suited ace, hit the nuts draw, focused on the rewards completing that draw will reap you and felt compelled to commit. So you have played the spades, or indeed the cards, rather than the situation.

I think playing the situation rather than the cards should always be the goal of the improving player.

Take a moment to look at the context of the situation. From all the options available you have chosen to LIMP into the pot. You decide that the strategy here is to get in cheap and play the potential of the hand (perfectly reasonable). When limping and playing the potential of a hand it would be ideal to go to the flop multi-way. Obviously, playing the potential nuts slowly means that if you are lucky enough to complete you want to be paid from all directions, so you want people in. In this example that has not happened and you go to the flop heads-up. This is not ideal (for the way you have chosen to play the hand) and should therefore begin changing your expectations of it.

The flop comes spades....the juices begin to pump...and you think

this is the flop I called to see

Steph bets out 1k and you think

I ain't having that

so re-pop him to 4k.

Slow down for a second. This is not a pot that you raised pre-flop. You came in slowly and quietly keeping the pot small and playing the potential of your hand. It is a SMALL, UNRAISED, HEADS-UP pot. That is the context of the hand. But because the spades are there you drop the softly, quietly strategy that you chose and are now aggressively pushing the hand. So you can see you are starting to play the hand out of your own context. I don't think this is ever a very good idea and is symptomatic of "seeing" spades and primarily playing cards.

I see so many people limp early with aces hoping for a raise that doesn't come and still push the hand hard post-flop. If you decide to limp with aces and the pot remains un-raised your strategy to play the hand fast HAS to change (because you're not playing the hand fast - you limped)

Following your opponent's push (and your call) the hand has ballooned out of context. A pot that you chose to play softly and cheaply now has almost 40k, and your tournament life, in it on the flop.

It is good to want to be aggressive and sometimes gamble on a draw. But again this is situation specific. It is impossible to make an aggressive all-in call. If you raise pre-flop it is ok to continue playing this hand aggressively.

The value of pushing the draw happens in a multi-way action flop where your aggression may well get the "squeezed" field to fold. Completing the draw is the safety net you may have to...but don't want to rely on. Pushing first, multi-way pot (or big pot), "squeeze play" potential, considering your Ace is an out, chip stack, tournament position, raising pre-flop etc...are all factors that would make pushing the draw on the flop a good thing considering the context. Absolutely none of these things are working for you.

You are a good player and have plenty of chips. Letting this hand go because things haven't worked out is not weak. I think calling all-in when you know only a spade will be good is weak though. You are just committing your tournament to luck. If you have faith in your ability to play then you should be looking for situations to out-play your opponents and there will be plenty of better opportunities than this later on.

Incidentally I myself, would call the 1K just to see what my opponent would do next (and fish for the spade). More significant action on the turn makes my decision easy.

[tikay]

You are a good player and have plenty of chips. Letting this hand go because things haven't worked out is not weak. I think calling all-in when you know only a spade will be good is weak though. You are just committing your tournament to luck. If you have faith in your ability to play then you should be looking for situations to out-play your opponents and there will be plenty of better opportunities than this later on.

That about sums up how I feel today.

I went for the "easy route" to a big stack, when I am perfectly capable, using my passive "dodge bullets" game, to fiddle & diddle my way to the Final. As you ay, I trusted to sheer luck, instead of relying on such guile & skills as I possess to get the job done.

Poker really is like life in many ways. Honest toil generally works for the more modestly talented, hard work & long days, far better than smash & grab for the lairy lads. I tried the smash & grab short cut.

Back into my grinders shell for me.

I really am cross with myself today, I'd built a Stack I could probably Final with, & made a daft play, sheer greed, sheer "lets cut corners" when I have the game & patience to get there by the traditional route. It's, as you say, a context thing more than anything else.

I guess that's the beauty of No-Limit - a single mistake & it's all over.

[MANTIS01]

Making a mistake and playing a way you later regret is absolutely essential on the journey to improvement though.

You can read all the books in the world but there is nothing like personal experience to hammer home a game-improving message. If we as players don't make these mistakes we will never get any better. Although getting knocked-out is no fun there is at least some positivity to be drawn from it.

I was watching my baby nephew trying to walk the other day. Every time he fell down he got back up with equal enthusiasm. Falling down is part and parcel of getting up and learning to walk with confidence. He was not upset that he fell he was just determined to do it better next time. Kids can teach us a lot I think.

[Tragic]

As always a really good post from Mantis good to be reminded of a few things in a clear manner now and again.