Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[AlexMartin]

Anyway tikay...why do you have a lot of respect for "old style" villains? Characters of course, but still villains nonetheless

Forgive me for butting in here.

Most of the old time villains had decent morals and standards. They were honorable, they were trustworthy, and they were men of their word.

If I was in a dark alley late at night, and I had to turn my back in an old style villain or a modern "Young offender" I wouldn't have a difficult choice.
 

did the old gaurd fall for the "ill just reach into my jacket and get my wallet for you trick..."?

[bolt pp]

OK. Would the respect for example apply to say The Kray Twins? Or is there a level of crime/violence beyond which the moral code of the old villains and the respect held for them was superseded by the crimes committed?

yes, but the krays never done anything "beyond the moral code"

[RED-DOG]

OK. Would the respect for example apply to say The Kray Twins? Or is there a level of crime/violence beyond which the moral code of the old villains and the respect held for them was superseded by the crimes committed?

Yes. The Krays overstepped the mark (In my opinion) They started out OK, but ultimately they were too mentally unstable to controll the power they wielded.

[TightEnd]

OK. Would the respect for example apply to say The Kray Twins? Or is there a level of crime/violence beyond which the moral code of the old villains and the respect held for them was superseded by the crimes committed?

yes, but the krays never done anything "beyond the moral code"

really? Not trying to start an argument, its not a world I am familiar with - the history of old time villains- but they never did anything "beyond the moral code"?

[byronkincaid]

hey guys poker is boring, let's set up a blonde crime syndicate. we can be old school if you like as long as we make mad dimez and get to stomp on people's headz, that's OK innit?

[bolt pp]

OK. Would the respect for example apply to say The Kray Twins? Or is there a level of crime/violence beyond which the moral code of the old villains and the respect held for them was superseded by the crimes committed?

yes, but the krays never done anything "beyond the moral code"

really? Not trying to start an argument, its not a world I am familiar with - the history of old time villains- but they never did anything "beyond the moral code"?

rape
child molesting
burgling a house of someone own your own manor
mugging an old lady
bubbling everyone up


they probs did a lot of very naughty things but theres a difference between being complete lunatics and being complete wrong'uns.

[Longy]

hey guys poker is boring, let's set up a blonde crime syndicate. we can be old school if you like as long as we make mad dimez and get to stomp on people's headz, that's OK innit?

As long as we are honest about it, lets go for it.

[Jon MW]

OK. Would the respect for example apply to say The Kray Twins? Or is there a level of crime/violence beyond which the moral code of the old villains and the respect held for them was superseded by the crimes committed?

yes, but the krays never done anything "beyond the moral code"

really? Not trying to start an argument, its not a world I am familiar with - the history of old time villains- but they never did anything "beyond the moral code"?

rape
child molesting
burgling a house of someone own your own manor
mugging an old lady
bubbling everyone up


they probs did a lot of very naughty things but theres a difference between being complete lunatics and being complete wrong'uns.

They murdered and tortured people - this doesn't make them complete wrong'uns?

[TightEnd]

OK. Would the respect for example apply to say The Kray Twins? Or is there a level of crime/violence beyond which the moral code of the old villains and the respect held for them was superseded by the crimes committed?

yes, but the krays never done anything "beyond the moral code"

really? Not trying to start an argument, its not a world I am familiar with - the history of old time villains- but they never did anything "beyond the moral code"?

rape
child molesting
burgling a house of someone own your own manor
mugging an old lady
bubbling everyone up


they probs did a lot of very naughty things but theres a difference between being complete lunatics and being complete wrong'uns.

murder not on the list then?

[RED-DOG]

Charlie had a great deal of charisma although he didn't seem to talk a lot, well not to me anyhow. Tall and distinguished-looking and always wearing an expensive smart suit he somehow exuded power and control in a very quiet and low-key manner like only real bona-fide villains can without working at it in the slightest. There was never ever going to be any bad behaviour or trouble there.

Crikey Ralph! That's an astonishingly descriptive piece of writing. If I didn't know you better, I'd say you pinched it from Raymond Chandler.

[bolt pp]

OK. Would the respect for example apply to say The Kray Twins? Or is there a level of crime/violence beyond which the moral code of the old villains and the respect held for them was superseded by the crimes committed?

yes, but the krays never done anything "beyond the moral code"

really? Not trying to start an argument, its not a world I am familiar with - the history of old time villains- but they never did anything "beyond the moral code"?

rape
child molesting
burgling a house of someone own your own manor
mugging an old lady
bubbling everyone up


they probs did a lot of very naughty things but theres a difference between being complete lunatics and being complete wrong'uns.

murder not on the list then?

nope.

murder IMO def not on the list and nowhere near as looked down upon(if it was between people who were in that sort of life anyway) as the things i listed.

[TightEnd]

OK. Would the respect for example apply to say The Kray Twins? Or is there a level of crime/violence beyond which the moral code of the old villains and the respect held for them was superseded by the crimes committed?

yes, but the krays never done anything "beyond the moral code"

really? Not trying to start an argument, its not a world I am familiar with - the history of old time villains- but they never did anything "beyond the moral code"?

rape
child molesting
burgling a house of someone own your own manor
mugging an old lady
bubbling everyone up


they probs did a lot of very naughty things but theres a difference between being complete lunatics and being complete wrong'uns.

murder not on the list then?

nope.

murder IMO def not on the list and nowhere near as looked down upon(if it was between people who were in that sort of life anyway) as the things i listed.

Oh. How odd, but I see the point you are making. Honour amongst thieves and all that

[RED-DOG]

I am reminded of this quote..

“One of the common failings among honorable people is a failure to appreciate how thoroughly dishonorable some other people can be, and how dangerous it is to trust them”

[tikay]

A few years ago I happened to visit Mentmore in Buckinghamshire very near the bridge where the robbery took place. I can't remember why I ended up there! There they had one of theTPO carriages exhibited with Robbery memorabilia. Stunningly restored and fascinating to anoraks! The same carriage is now preserved at Birmingham Railway Museum.


Anyway tikay...why do you have a lot of respect for "old style" villains? Characters of course, but still villains nonetheless

I'll answer that properly later, I'm working tonight, but great question, & Red & boilt have it about right.

Basically, it was knives not guns, & between themselves, they did not mess with "straights".

They would "stripe" or "cross" another villain as soon as look at them. To "cross" or "stripe" was to criss-cross their arse wirth a blade. Never fatal, but the victim could not sit down for weeks. And they'd grass any villain who acted wrongly - that is to say, messed with the straights. (public).

There was no drug problem then, & the villains tended to be jewel thieves, or racecourse gangs, with bookie-related crime prevelant. There'd be more villains on Epsom Downs on Derby Week than enough.

Read the astonishing books by Frankie Fraser, or Freddie Foreman. Real villains, amazing books.

The krays? The Krays did torture & maim & all that sort oif stuff - ask George Cornell, who they butchered in the Blind Beggar Pub, in Whitechapel Road - but it was amongst "their own types", not the public. The public were of no interest to them.

The Richardson's gang was another "Super-Gang", who controlled South-West London - the Richardson Brothers were bad bad bad, mind.

Don't start me off on 40's, 50's, & 60's crime, I've hundreds of books on it, & I'm in my element absorbing myself into their world. Via books, that is.

Jack Spot got slashed big time - wow, they slashed him good & proper. They coulda killed him as soon as look at him, but that was not on the agenda. Honour, see?

[tikay]

I need to jot down - for later discussion/wordage - something I've been mulling over for a while - the Top Ten News Stories of my time, which the GTR reminds me to do.

My first stab at my Top Ten News Stories (of my age) is here - in no particular order.

Aberfan

The Great Train Robbery

John F Kennedy's Assassination.

The Clinton-Lewinsky debacle.

Robert Maxwell

John Stonehouse

The "Troubles" in Northern Ireland

Watergate. (Will deffo be the top of my final List).

The Thatcher Years

On the "might be" list are....

The '66 World Cup

Vietnam War.

The fall of the Berlin Wall.

Munich Air Disaster

9/11

I'm pretty sure I've missed a few I should have remembered. I'll amend as & wehen.

What would your Tiop Ten news Stories be?

Mandela/Apartheid in there somewhere?


9/11 only on the "might" list?

Apartheid. I think I need a seperate category, for "long" stories that evoilved.

The Thatcher Years.

The arrival of home PC's & the Internet.

The arrival of Mobile 'Phones.

Apartheid.

9/11 on the "might list". Yes, just "might list". I loved the coverage, but it was grim, too - so many innocent peeps killed. It does not quite hit the spot for me though. Oddly, my most vivid thoughts on it are how dumb & bad was American security, to allow it to happen, & how well organised the Terrorists were. It's not THAT easy to hijack all those aeroplanes, & fly two of them into the Twin Towers. Could YOU fly a jet into a skyscraper, facing certain death, or would reflexes make you pull away at the last moment?

And of course the Americans then decided to start a war, it was nothing but a spite war. And, suddenly, "al qaeda" was invented.