Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[RED-DOG]

Obviously random abuse of newbies is out of order but I don't think that happens.

I was a member of an internet mailing list once which had a system whereby when you joined up, you couldn't post anything for 2 weeks. The idea behind this was so that new members got a feel for the place before they started posting.

Now, I'm not suggesting anything like that for blonde, but the people who get a hard time on PHA are the ones who don't seem to have ever read any posts on it. They haven't taken the time to see which posts get good responses and which ones get the '[  ] analysis required' replies.

The guy who got some stick this week said right at the start of his post he was a long-time lurker, and yet seemed unfamiliar with how PHA works and what it's all about. If he'd taken the time to read a few posts (put something in) he'd have started a better thread and got useful replies (got something out).

So are you saying you must ask the right question in the right way or else you will be open to abuse?

[RED-DOG]

Posted by: RED-DOG

For every one who stays and learns something, there will be two who go away and never come back, and two more who will be too shy to post in the first place when they see a fellow newby get a roasting.

This could be so. And I suppose that would be a shame. But we're not talking about refugees or anything, we're talking about people wanting to learn poker. Poker is a tough business I would say. The people who have the tenacity to take a bit of stick are probably those with the most potential. Some of the people dropped out of my martial arts class when they got hit with the stick. Maybe for every two who decided karate wasn't for them one stayed and really learnt to keep those hands up.

I don't buy this "Poker is a tough business" malarkey. Yes, it's a tough business for someone who wants to do it for a living, but what about the other 95% who just want to have a bit of fun?

Can't poker be a pleasant business, even on here?

[AndrewT]

Obviously random abuse of newbies is out of order but I don't think that happens.

I was a member of an internet mailing list once which had a system whereby when you joined up, you couldn't post anything for 2 weeks. The idea behind this was so that new members got a feel for the place before they started posting.

Now, I'm not suggesting anything like that for blonde, but the people who get a hard time on PHA are the ones who don't seem to have ever read any posts on it. They haven't taken the time to see which posts get good responses and which ones get the '[  ] analysis required' replies.

The guy who got some stick this week said right at the start of his post he was a long-time lurker, and yet seemed unfamiliar with how PHA works and what it's all about. If he'd taken the time to read a few posts (put something in) he'd have started a better thread and got useful replies (got something out).

So are you saying you must ask the right question in the right way or else you will be open to abuse?

No, I'm saying that if people show that they've put some thought into their post, and show some understanding of how PHA can help people, then they'll get a lot more out of it.

A lot of the regular posters put a lot of time and effort into their posts in PHA. I don't think it's too much to ask for those asking the questions to do a little of the same.

Ill-thought out requests tend to lead to either the types of posts which some people have problems with, or 4-day old threads with no replies, neither of which help PHA or the people who contribute to it.

[RED-DOG]

Obviously random abuse of newbies is out of order but I don't think that happens.

I was a member of an internet mailing list once which had a system whereby when you joined up, you couldn't post anything for 2 weeks. The idea behind this was so that new members got a feel for the place before they started posting.

Now, I'm not suggesting anything like that for blonde, but the people who get a hard time on PHA are the ones who don't seem to have ever read any posts on it. They haven't taken the time to see which posts get good responses and which ones get the '[  ] analysis required' replies.

The guy who got some stick this week said right at the start of his post he was a long-time lurker, and yet seemed unfamiliar with how PHA works and what it's all about. If he'd taken the time to read a few posts (put something in) he'd have started a better thread and got useful replies (got something out).

So are you saying you must ask the right question in the right way or else you will be open to abuse?

No, I'm saying that if people show that they've put some thought into their post, and show some understanding of how PHA can help people, then they'll get a lot more out of it.

A lot of the regular posters put a lot of time and effort into their posts in PHA. I don't think it's too much to ask for those asking the questions to do a little of the same.

Ill-thought out requests tend to lead to either the types of posts which some people have problems with, or 4-day old threads with no replies, neither of which help PHA or the people who contribute to it.

That's a different argument altogether though Andrew. You are talking about newbies getting good quality advice, I'm talking about them being ridiculed, not quite the same thing.

[Rod Paradise]

I agree with the notion the PHA Board has improved. Everyone is respecful to fellow members as far as I can tell though. I see the PHA section as a facility for members to improve their poker skills, and it's a very good place to do that. So people with the objective of improvement will achieve what they want. I have taken a lot of stick on there myself as a member of Blonde but I don't care because I want to improve my poker.That's why I'm using the board. I am also partial to a making a sarcastic comment or two and think that's ok because there's no malice in it. If I wanted social networking I would go to other areas of the forum. People need a bit of tenacity if they want to play good poker so they need to just get stuck in and use the board to their benefit.

Some first-timers may get a baptism of fire. The guy this week who flopped the nut full-house and was unsure about his hand got a strong lesson. I don't know if that's so bad. A friend of mine started his first day working at a factory and the other guys stripped him naked, tied him to a wheelbarrow, and wheeled him into the canteen at lunchtime. That's pretty bad. From my own perspective the blunt, curt manner of some of the responses is quite helpful. Actually the fact that it thickens your skin is very helpful. If you want to learn and someone gives you a strong lesson then that should be pretty helpful to you. When I learnt martial arts as a teenager the mad Korean guy running the class used to smack you in the head with a bamboo stick if you dropped your hands. Damn you kept those hands up.

For every one who stays and learns something, there will be two who go away and never come back, and two more who will be too shy to post in the first place when they see a fellow newby get a roasting.

They would never be able to improve if they couldn't bear to hear when they have mangled a hand, the ones that do stay improve rapidly.

For the sake of improving members skillz, it's deffo better this way around.

Do you ever read it?

But Flushy you gave a far better answer later - one that was good advice on maximising the hand & one that led to better questions. So if you'd thought beyond 'played bad' without others asking sensible questions could you have been as constructive without being cruel to a noob? If someone plays a hand bad and wants advice should they not ask?

[AndrewT]

That's a different argument altogether though Andrew. You are talking about newbies getting good quality advice, I'm talking about them being ridiculed, not quite the same thing.

I don't think they should get abuse hurled at them, but neither do I think they should get treated any differently than someone who has posted on there for months.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: RED-DOG

I don't buy this "Poker is a tough business" malarkey.

I have shared a table with Red. He would rip your heart out in a second.

[RED-DOG]

That's a different argument altogether though Andrew. You are talking about newbies getting good quality advice, I'm talking about them being ridiculed, not quite the same thing.

I don't think they should get abuse hurled at them, but neither do I think they should get treated any differently than someone who has posted on there for months.

In that case I simply disagree. I think any beginner deserves a little extra consideration. be it poker, martial arts, learner drivers or whatever.

[RED-DOG]

Posted by: RED-DOG

I don't buy this "Poker is a tough business" malarkey.

I have shared a table with Red. He would rip your heart out in a second.

Yes, I would rip your heart out, but I would do it politely.

I didn't say play soft against them. were not facing them across a poker table here, they are asking for advice.

[AndrewT]

That's a different argument altogether though Andrew. You are talking about newbies getting good quality advice, I'm talking about them being ridiculed, not quite the same thing.

I don't think they should get abuse hurled at them, but neither do I think they should get treated any differently than someone who has posted on there for months.

In that case I simply disagree. I think any beginner deserves a little extra consideration. be it poker, martial arts, learner drivers or whatever.

And they'll get it - in all the other areas of the forum. People can stumble into The Lounge and, provided they're not completely out of line, they'll get treated with kid gloves whilst they get to know what this place is like. The same thing will happen in the Learning Centre - a place especially for beginners where they can ask basic, novice questions and get proper answers which don't treat them as some kind of LOL newbie.

I do think PHA should be a bit different. People post in there to ask other posters to spend time and effort to help them become a better poker player. All that the regulars ask is that you show you've given it a bit of proper thought yourself first. If PHA got overwhelmed with bad beat posts then the mainstays who make it a valuable resource will stop posting and the board will die.

Bear in mind I'm not saying 'if a newbie's post isn't perfect they should get ripped to shreds' (lest you misinterpret another one of my posts) but a little gentle ribbing isn't going to do them any harm, and will help them to get more out of the board.

[RED-DOG]

(lest you misinterpret another one of my posts)

An annoying, but not exclusive tendency, and not unlike your penchant for putting words into my mouth.

[RED-DOG]

Lets be clear here. I am talking about flaming or ridiculing novice players who ask for advice.

You appear to be talking about the gentle ribbing of players who post bad beat stories.

[DesD]

JoMW gets Duffy'd.

For anyone who would like to see the results, and blonde Nick 'Ripple11' Jenkins take down the spoils....

[Longy]

Whoa the PHA arguement is going in cycles, i personally agree with AndrewT's point of view on things. People like Alex Martin,Lucky Lloyd , Totalise, Flushy  etc have contributed more to PHA than most.

I think the above at times don't get credit they deserve and the sarky posts seem to overshadow the rest of their contribution they make to the forum. Many of the people who alledgelly despair at PHA make no contribution to that part of forum despite being very experienced in poker.

[thetank]

I think one problem on right now is that the guidelines in the sticky at the top are a bit useless. I know I wrote them and all that, but I think their time has passed.

The problem with them is they lecture as to how best to make a reply to a thread. This doesn't achieve much, especially for new users who are the only people who read such stickys anyway.

A better sticky would be some guidlines to new users as to how best to start a thread/post a hand.
Something in capitals like WELCOME, READ THIS BEFORE POSTING FOR BEST RESULTS.

Maybe some of the regulars on the board would be willing to offer suggestions as to what to include in such a post.