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Author Topic: call , push or fold ? what would you do ?  (Read 1600 times)
BigTomatoes
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« on: July 27, 2007, 01:07:57 AM »


 this hand came up , only hand i had seen since tourney started.

 im a fledgling omaha player perhaps some of the more experienced players could have a look at this .

 should i fold call to see a flop or raise all in in this spot ?

 
Omaha Hi Lo PL Freezeout 50.00|100.00

- _Ectorstx_ sitting in seat 2 with $2060.00

- em_unit2006 sitting in seat 4 with $5090.00

- bazno1p sitting in seat 5 with $3795.00 [Sitting out]

- Jack2310 sitting in seat 6 with $1745.00 [Dealer]

- horse88 sitting in seat 7 with $8735.00

- Minny-fish sitting in seat 8 with $1915.00

- SOLARMAN77 sitting in seat 9 with $4215.00

- starrat46 sitting in seat 10 with $1775.00

horse88 posted the small blind - $25.00
Minny-fish posted the big blind - $50.00

** Dealing card to Jack2310:  Two Clubs

SOLARMAN77 called - $50.00

starrat46 folded

_Ectorstx_ folded

em_unit2006 folded

bazno1p called - $50.00

Jack2310 raised - $250.00

horse88 raised - $900.00

Minny-fish folded

SOLARMAN77 folded

bazno1p called - $900.00

Jack2310 ?





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Paullie_D
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2007, 10:08:55 AM »

It's not a hard and fast rule but it's generally not a good idea to raise pre-flop in Omaha Hi/Lo. I'm not saying you can't do it but you're advertising that you have a 'big' hand (at least in your opinion). OK, you have a reasonable pair and a nice low draw but you're a long way from a 'lock' on the hand.

If the flop comes down with a K or Q, you're probably behind.

In this instance, I'd have called to see a cheap flop but it's too late.

Your choices now are, reasonably, fold or call. You could push but you are pretty much guaranteed a call and then it's off to the races.

Calling is an option but you have to be ready to put it down if an ugly flop hits. The re-raise you're facing smells of AA in which case, he's drawing thin to his his set.

I see 'baznop' was sitting out and then woke up to call the re-raise...this feels like he has a monster hand too.

On balance, I fold and hope for a better spot, you haven't committed too much yet.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 10:11:14 AM by Paullie_D » Logged

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geeforce1
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2007, 10:35:44 AM »

i dont agree with 'u shouldnt raise in plo hi lo' what seperates ability is to make plays on every street that makes the best value of ur hand. i wouldnt really like to commit 900 of 1700 chips with just a call. if u rr u r getting good value, probs as a dog but ur low hand offers good out value. fold is also good tho, bb is only 50 no need to get ott here for me. no flat call tho, in or out
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« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2007, 10:51:51 AM »

i dont agree with 'u shouldnt raise in plo hi lo' what seperates ability is to make plays on every street that makes the best value of ur hand.

Not precisely what I said..
Quote
It's not a hard and fast rule but it's generally not a good idea to raise pre-flop in Omaha Hi/Lo.

Sure you can raise after the flop but pre-flop you won't have a made hand and all you are doing is, as I said, advertising the 'strength' of your hand.

Post-flop is a different matter...then, as you say, it's maximising the value once you've seen the texture of the board.

Of course, it's "different strokes for different folks".


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JungleCat03
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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2007, 12:21:38 PM »

I've heard the "shouldn't raise preflop" theory about om/8 before but I don't agree with it. As it is usually a pot limit game, the size of the pot will be partly determined by the size of the pot preflop.

Position is massive in om/8 so creating bigger pots in position and controlling pots out of position is a big part of the game. Also, raising preflop can achieve different things.

For instance if you have a hand like AA3x, you may well want to narrow the range of callers you are up against to increase the likelihood your high hand is good which you may be able to do, whilst with a hand like A234 ds you usually want a multitude of callers so your draw gets full value when you hit.

In a lot of plom/8 tournament situations , there are lots of reasons to raise later on, as blinds are big and stacks are shallower. Sitting back and playing big hands only will blind you out quickly, so ramping up the aggression intelligently pays dividends.


As regards this hand, a fold is not out of the question as there are lots of juicy spots to find, especially as it is only 25 50 and you'll have 1500 back if you fold.

Gambling in the form of shoving is not terrible though, you should have enough equity in the pot to continue, but as it is probably a close +EV gamble, your tournament is on the line, and you are still relatively deep, i think folding is probably slightly better here. If you have any reason to think that the other 2 players in the pot are extremely bad and can have almost any 2 cards here (which is sometimes the case in plom8 comps) then I might well lean toward getting it in and gambling.

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kvnstv
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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2007, 01:07:48 PM »

Great to see a discussion on O8, so rare to see anything other than NLHE being discussed! I agree with JC here that the fold is the slighty better option. I think if it was KKA2 or QQA2 I would have gone with it but the JJ is just to likely to be outflopped by AKQ2 type hand or in real trouble against the two hands I mentioned. 

I remeber reading Mike Cappalletis excellent book on O8 that A2 will win a portion of the pot 40% of the time so I think this makes a good case for raising with it. But exeperience has shown me that raising A2 in pot limit O8 games makes it possible for made strong high hand's on the flop to make it very expensive to draw so I like to keep the pot smaller pre-flop. As for limit I like to flat call with A2 from early position because I don't want the A3 and A4 to be pushed out and denied the chance of drawing to a worse low. If I'm in late position and we have a multitude oif callers then its worth the raise for value, 
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NoflopsHomer
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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2007, 03:01:34 PM »

Position is massive in om/8

Do you really think so? I've always thought that hand selection supercedes anything else in 08.
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BigTomatoes
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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2007, 06:10:01 PM »

 a lot of great points so far guys , keep them coming.

 i had been watching Sklansky's lessons on O8 prior to this tournament , and this really was the first hand i had .

 i have a good pair JJ i have the AJ suited and i have the A2 for the low draw , maybe i was unlucky the SB had a monster.

 dont forget i was on the button in this hand , 2 limpers and i raise on the button , im hoping for the blinds to go out and get a call or 2 , then i have position throughout the hand.

 maybe i should have thought more about what the SB would re raise with , a bigger pair and i'm in trouble , but when Baz flat called his re raise there is 2225 in the pot , i only have 1500 left and i also felt Baz was committed so this is what happened . . .

 I pushed , Horse pushed and Baz FOLDED Huh? anyway , Horse turns over AA28 double suited so i guess i'm unlucky he also has the A2 low draw and im drawing thin , i still have outs but the board was'nt kind and i exited the tourney .

 the more i thought about my play afterwards i thought the fold was the best play , but hindsight is wonderful eh ?

 i got slightly carried away because it was my first " premium " hand of th tourney.

 Homer , Sklansky preaches on this video that position is the key , however , he also says hand selection and interpreted hand VALUE. ie. much like Holdem most players play too loose in early position and too TIGHT in late position.

 so there is an argument for both , imo you should be tight and careful with your hand selection in ALL positions but if you can play them well both on the flop and later streets that is the difference between a poor loose player and a good solid O8 player.

 ps. Sklansky doesnt advise against raising pre flop , he does'nt encourage it but if it's good enough for David Sklansky its good enough for me !
« Last Edit: July 27, 2007, 06:13:00 PM by BigTomatoes » Logged

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JungleCat03
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2007, 12:18:30 AM »

Position is massive in om/8

Do you really think so? I've always thought that hand selection supercedes anything else in 08.

Yeh I think hand selection is really important, but I think using position intelligently is super important. It's maybe not like holdem where you might raise the button with any cards to take control of the pot. I don't think you can do that so much  with random hands in om/8 as you will likely be unsuccessful as people are more likely to call and you can get into some very sticky spots with wierd hands. But you can control the pot much more in position, decide when it's advantageous to make semi bluffs, have a much better idea when you are likely scooping or quartering opponents and so ramp the pot or control the pot size if you feel like your opponent may be very strong one way or t'other.

Playing OOP is also a key area i feel and people often build large pots that put them in trouble on later streets, having to call in blind hope or fold when their straight/ flush gets counterfeited where they only have a hand working one way.

I don't think raising the button is too bad here and running into a monster in the blinds is a bit unlucky but folding is definitely a possibility. If you play a range of relatively strong starting hands,  especially early with smaller blinds, preferably in position, you will find yourself with lots of big edges on the flops. Against the hand he had here you are obviously in bad shape but he won't always have a hand this strong here so I think your play has positive expectancy, especially with the 3rd player's dead money in the pot, but you can find bigger and better edges on the flops and I think early on you don't really want to commit too many of your chips preflop unless you have an absolute stormer of a hand.

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geeforce1
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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2007, 01:08:51 AM »

Position is massive in om/8

Do you really think so? I've always thought that hand selection supercedes anything else in 08.

Yeh I think hand selection is really important, but I think using position intelligently is super important. It's maybe not like holdem where you might raise the button with any cards to take control of the pot. I don't think you can do that so much  with random hands in om/8 as you will likely be unsuccessful as people are more likely to call and you can get into some very sticky spots with wierd hands. But you can control the pot much more in position, decide when it's advantageous to make semi bluffs, have a much better idea when you are likely scooping or quartering opponents and so ramp the pot or control the pot size if you feel like your opponent may be very strong one way or t'other.

Playing OOP is also a key area i feel and people often build large pots that put them in trouble on later streets, having to call in blind hope or fold when their straight/ flush gets counterfeited where they only have a hand working one way.

I don't think raising the button is too bad here and running into a monster in the blinds is a bit unlucky but folding is definitely a possibility. If you play a range of relatively strong starting hands,  especially early with smaller blinds, preferably in position, you will find yourself with lots of big edges on the flops. Against the hand he had here you are obviously in bad shape but he won't always have a hand this strong here so I think your play has positive expectancy, especially with the 3rd player's dead money in the pot, but you can find bigger and better edges on the flops and I think early on you don't really want to commit too many of your chips preflop unless you have an absolute stormer of a hand.



^^^^^what he said 
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The_Diamond
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« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2007, 02:17:55 AM »

lol@advice to limp in with this hand.

Its an easy shove there. Your hand is ahead of most players reraising rainge.
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2007, 01:15:36 AM »

folding, folding, folding, this is a traaaaaaaaaaaash holding.
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2007, 03:31:22 PM »

The no pfr raise theory certainly doesn't hold true for tournaments, the principle still applies that it's accumulate chips or die In your situation, by the looks of it you are relatively short and along way behind the leaders. Where does the payout start, I would suggest at this stage of the tournament his reraising range is pretty big so auto putting him on stuff like AKQ2 is giving him far too much credit. All these points are really good for cash but at the end of the day tournament poker is still tournament poker!
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BigTomatoes
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2007, 05:56:33 PM »


 when he reraised i knew i was behind but decided to gamble because there were a few chips in the pot.

 i dont think the raise was bad , i think the call was. but as i said it was the only good hand i had seen and decided to gamble.
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2007, 06:00:21 PM »

All In! No hesitation.

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