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Author Topic: Tricky spot with KK  (Read 2727 times)
doubleup
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« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2007, 05:26:03 PM »

i don't get your bet on the flop. if you're betting to check if you're ahead you have to fold now theyve both come over the top?!
or if you were betting weak to induce such action you have to call. so you should already know what you want to be doing here..



lol I bet half pot - how do my opponents know which of these I'm doing. 

As far as the bet is concerned, there is no point in betting any more as I only get action from hands that call an AI.  By betting half pot I can get action from a hand that thinks I might fold e.g. AK.  I happily call the AA here as he has either AA or QQ.  The problem is whether the AA's AI combined with the coldcaller's is sufficient evidence that I'm behind.

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bobby1
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« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2007, 05:58:21 PM »

i don't get your bet on the flop. if you're betting to check if you're ahead you have to fold now theyve both come over the top?!
or if you were betting weak to induce such action you have to call. so you should already know what you want to be doing here..



lol I bet half pot - how do my opponents know which of these I'm doing. 

As far as the bet is concerned, there is no point in betting any more as I only get action from hands that call an AI.  By betting half pot I can get action from a hand that thinks I might fold e.g. AK.  I happily call the AA here as he has either AA or QQ.  The problem is whether the AA's AI combined with the coldcaller's is sufficient evidence that I'm behind.



sounds like the perfect summing up to me.
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Wardonkey
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« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2007, 12:40:11 AM »

Your getting 5/1 on the call which is not that far off the odds you need to call if you are stone cold certain that you are behind.

So you need to be absolutely certain you are beat to fold, otherwise you must call.
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tikay
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« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2007, 02:15:17 AM »

I think the Kings are ahead.

Or at least I'm not sure enough that they're behind to fold...

Mid pairs might think that's a good enough flop to push and so do the draws. There are many more hands that they might have that you are beating than hands to which you are losing. For me the odds dictate a call.


(I do my nuts in cash games)

Only to the creme de le creme.
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doubleup
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« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2007, 11:30:44 AM »

Your getting 5/1 on the call which is not that far off the odds you need to call if you are stone cold certain that you are behind.

So you need to be absolutely certain you are beat to fold, otherwise you must call.

errrr 10-1 is quite far off 5-1 I think (google "bookies" "mercedes")
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« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2007, 12:00:27 PM »

Your getting 5/1 on the call which is not that far off the odds you need to call if you are stone cold certain that you are behind.

So you need to be absolutely certain you are beat to fold, otherwise you must call.

your miles off the odds you need to call on this flop. With 2 other guys in the pot and you're almost 99% to be behind the other one you're maybe a 5% shot at winning this..20-1
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Wardonkey
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« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2007, 12:41:14 PM »

Your getting 5/1 on the call which is not that far off the odds you need to call if you are stone cold certain that you are behind.

So you need to be absolutely certain you are beat to fold, otherwise you must call.

your miles off the odds you need to call on this flop. With 2 other guys in the pot and you're almost 99% to be behind the other one you're maybe a 5% shot at winning this..20-1

If your up against 66 then you are about 17% to win.

If your up against A9 you are about 9% to win.

There is a small chance of quads, in which case you are fkd.

There is also a decent chance that you are ahead.

Folding is a an error and I think it's quite a big error.









« Last Edit: August 05, 2007, 01:01:37 PM by Wardonkey » Logged

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doubleup
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« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2007, 01:28:46 PM »

Your getting 5/1 on the call which is not that far off the odds you need to call if you are stone cold certain that you are behind.

So you need to be absolutely certain you are beat to fold, otherwise you must call.

your miles off the odds you need to call on this flop. With 2 other guys in the pot and you're almost 99% to be behind the other one you're maybe a 5% shot at winning this..20-1

If your up against 66 then you are about 17% to win.

If your up against A9 you are about 9% to win.

There is a small chance of quads, in which case you are fkd.

There is also a decent chance that you are ahead.

Folding is a an error and I think it's quite a big error.











There is utterly no chance of anyone having A9.  You are forgetting that there is a high prob of the 1st allin having AA.  This kills the two nines being outs when 2nd allin has 66.

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Wardonkey
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« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2007, 01:42:33 PM »

Aces are possible but most players would put another raise in preflop with AA to avoid being OOP in a mulitway pot. The flat call preflop just prices the other two players in.

I agree A9 isn't very likely, but it's not impossible.

How do the draws and the pocket pairs play in this pot?


The pot is huge, half your stack is already is in the middle, you may well be behind, but there's more than enough uncertainty to make the call.
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doubleup
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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2007, 01:57:44 PM »

Aces are possible but most players would put another raise in preflop with AA to avoid being OOP in a mulitway pot. The flat call preflop just prices the other two players in.

I agree A9 isn't very likely, but it's not impossible.

How do the draws and the pocket pairs play in this pot?


The pot is huge, half your stack is already is in the middle, you may well be behind, but there's more than enough uncertainty to make the call.


Bottom line is that it is quite close (hence my post) and the second allin has to have something like JJ in his range to make this a call for me and I doubt if he instacalls with this.  The cold callers in the hand simply must have trapping hands i.e non premium pairs and suited connectors.

Re the AA play, I can only think he assumed that the players that called his !st raise would fold.  Bad play on his part, I would certainly have rrsd a little bit more than the min.

Couple of pokerstoves.

Board:
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    10.028%     10.03%    00.00%             10866            0.00   { AA, QQ }
Hand 1:    09.097%     09.10%    00.00%              9858            0.00   { KcKh }
Hand 2:    80.875%     80.87%    00.00%             87636            0.00   { 99, 66, T9s, 97s+ }


Board:
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    23.605%     23.61%    00.00%             40926            0.00   { AA, QQ }
Hand 1:    22.443%     22.44%    00.00%             38910            0.00   { KcKh }
Hand 2:    53.952%     53.95%    00.00%             93540            0.00   { JJ, 99, 66, T9s, 97s+ }

So it's a clear fold without JJ and just a call with JJ

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