Doing deals

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: BrumBilly
It's all relative and dependant on many variables but in a nutshell, if I'm playing in a £20rebuy and I'm offered a deal that gives me between £300-500 then I'm taking it. If I find myself @ the FT of the WSOP main event I wouldn't deal as for me there'd be no point. I'd have made a significant cash and have nothing to lose financially. At the level I'm playing IMO I hurt myself financially when I don't deal.

I am very much inclined to agree with this view. At this time in my life, as with most people, money is a factor. Making enough money out of poker to pay some bills and to enable me to carry on playing is the priority. Anybody who says any different either lives at home with their parents or is financially secure.

One of the first posts on this thread quoted Tony G who doesn't deal because he says "I've got the big heart". Well I find it no surprise that affluent and sponsored pros pay little consideration to the financial implications of their win or bust strategy. I think this view from a role model to many might be quite irresponsible and misleading actually.

Tune into Sky Sports News and you are sure to see an interview with the latest football sensation who has signed with one of the big four Premier League clubs. Funny how they always say they came to the club for "footballing reasons" and that money simply wasn't a factor. Mmmmm....when you earn £50-100k a week there is little surprise money isn't an issue (I wonder if said footballer and agent sat in the manager's office to discuss terms with this attitude cos it would have saved the club a fortune!)

So I agree with Billy. If I take 1k home from a 4-way chop in a £20 re-buy this gives me the funds to play recreationally in these tournaments for the rest of the month and also buys me into a number of sats for bigger events: Events that could possibly change my life...make me financially secure...and give me "the big heart!"

However, once at the WSOP final table I have achieved the goal of financial security. I may win $1m or $2m...both amounts are sufficient for me so other things become important. I would really want to play it out because I have guaranteed financial security as well as a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to take my place in history and achieve something that money simply can't buy.....Oh to have the luxury of the big heart.

[tikay]

The 110 runner GBPT Main Event at Leeds was well-structured. It must have been, there were 9 players left at 4pm & the 8th player never busted out until just after midnight!

They then did a huge 7 way deal, £6k to everyone left, play for the rest. Which took another 4 hours.

Look at Prize Structures to see the reasons.

[taximan007]

Having never played any big tournaments in the UK I was wondering how the organsers/sponsers felt about deals being done? especially if there is "added prize money"

[tikay]

Having never played any big tournaments in the UK I was wondering how the organsers/sponsers felt about deals being done? especially if there is "added prize money"

If they were to structure the Prize Pool sensibly, the problem would largely go away. There are plenty of moaners & groaners when flatter Prize Pools are mooted, but the evidence is overwhelmingly suggesting that's what most folks want, when crunch-time comes.

The Sponsors are prob not best pleased, but it's their own fault for not listening to the players & watching the Tourney scene properly.

[robbiebox]

The APAT tourneys are very top heavy (with the added seat prize).

So how come Tikay , APAT doesn't support deal making??

[tikay]

So how come Tikay , APAT doesn't support deal making??

Because they are National Championships, & you can't chop a National Championship. APAT Events are also not really about money, as those who play them readily testify. And our Prize Pool is is structured flat (nearly said "nice & flat"!) so there is not much benefit in chopping anyway. It's designed for, & fit for, purpose.

Again, the evidence suggests this is correct. In only one APAT event was a Deal ever mentioned during the whole Season, and as soon as I reminded the player of the APAT ethos,  the matter was quickly & happily dropped. Eventually, I suppose one might get chopped up, but as English/Irish/Welsh/Scottish/UK/European/World Amateur Championships, it does not stack up to chop them. And the players know that, they want that trophy, that Gold Medal. that title, and those Bragging rights - "AMATEUR CHAMPION". And with a fairly narrow gap in the top 3 money places, but the Added Money GUKPT Seat thrown in, (or EPT/WSOP as was) they are keenly contested in a lovely spirit.

[byronkincaid]

So how come Tikay , APAT doesn't support deal making??

Because they are National Championships, & you can't chop a National Championship. APAT Events are also not really about money, as those who play them readily testify. And our Prize Pool is is structured flat (nearly said "nice & flat"!) so there is not much benefit in chopping anyway. It's designed for, & fit for, purpose.

Again, the evidence suggests this is correct. In only one APAT event was a Deal ever mentioned during the whole Season, and as soon as I reminded the player of the APAT ethos,  the matter was quickly & happily dropped. Eventually, I suppose one might get chopped up, but as English/Irish/Welsh/Scottish/UK/European/World Amateur Championships, it does not stack up to chop them. And the players know that, they want that trophy, that Gold Medal. that title, and those Bragging rights - "AMATEUR CHAMPION". And with a fairly narrow gap in the top 3 money places, but the Added Money GUKPT Seat thrown in, (or EPT/WSOP as was) they are keenly contested in a lovely spirit.

I understand you are doing an APAT Masters? which pro's can enter. Will you allow deals in that? Any news on when/where is will be?

[tikay]

So how come Tikay , APAT doesn't support deal making??

Because they are National Championships, & you can't chop a National Championship. APAT Events are also not really about money, as those who play them readily testify. And our Prize Pool is is structured flat (nearly said "nice & flat"!) so there is not much benefit in chopping anyway. It's designed for, & fit for, purpose.

Again, the evidence suggests this is correct. In only one APAT event was a Deal ever mentioned during the whole Season, and as soon as I reminded the player of the APAT ethos,  the matter was quickly & happily dropped. Eventually, I suppose one might get chopped up, but as English/Irish/Welsh/Scottish/UK/European/World Amateur Championships, it does not stack up to chop them. And the players know that, they want that trophy, that Gold Medal. that title, and those Bragging rights - "AMATEUR CHAMPION". And with a fairly narrow gap in the top 3 money places, but the Added Money GUKPT Seat thrown in, (or EPT/WSOP as was) they are keenly contested in a lovely spirit.

I understand you are doing an APAT Masters? which pro's can enter. Will you allow deals in that? Any news on when/where is will be?

Yes, there will be an APAT Masters, for Amateurs & Pros. Date & Venue still tbc, but I'd say not before the turn of the year.

"Allow deals", well, in the Amateur Series, we can't really prohibit them, but we structure things such that they are not really worth doing, plus there is the Title & stuff that goes with it too.

What will our view be on deals in the APAT Masters? I've not discussed that with my colleagues yet, so in truth, I don't know. But my two penny worth will suggest that we structure it "sensibly", & in that way, the "deal" situation becomes less likely. We should have the Members Committees up & running by then too, so we'll take input from them. It remains to be seen, however, if I'll still be Chairman by that time, as the position is to be an Elected one after Season One.

I am not anti-deal in any way, I must add, quite the opposite, though they are not suitable for a National or Interational Amateur Championship. Hell, I've accepted scores, maybe hundreds, of "chops". My take on deals is that they happen so often because the Prize Pool is badly structured, relative to the "play" left in the Tourney.  A very fixable thing.

[tikay]

The Main Event at Toquay's Golden Sands Fessie, a very successful & wel-run affair I gather, resulted in a 3 way deal.

So all three of last week's Main Events resulted in deals or chops, Sheffield £500 was an 8 way chop, Leeds GBPT a 7 way chop, & Torquay had a 3 way deal.

We hear all the moans & groans about Deals being a bad thing, but the hard facts suggest they are remarkably popular, if we had all three Main Events in a given week subject to chops or deals.

A deal was also done at The Sportsman last Monday, in the £250, when 7 players were left. I busted 8th......

[MANTIS01]

Really good post jjandellis

[RED-DOG]

That's a great post. Thank you.

[TightEnd]

Just got back from a week back home at the parents in Blackpool (gutted I didn't get to play there cus of a virus I came down with).

Prior to going away I was mulling over my stance on deal making - and any of the comments on this thread were at the forefront of my mind. Funnily enough what tipped it was a look back into my past.

Whilst at my mums I had a quick peek at an old scrapbook - magazine/newspaper cuttings of me, that sort of thing from when I was a racing cyclist. Yes, I spent most f my youth between the ages of 12 and 20 clad in lycra riding in horrendous weather around the countryside.

Well anyway, I was quite good. Well good enough to ride for the British junior squad and right at the top amatuer level in my first couple of years as a senior. So where is this going...

Well in cycling to progress up the categories you have to get placed in races to gain points. These races also had prize money (paltry by poker standards and even other sorts back then. But as a student it was pots of gold). Each year I would gain the points I needed to progress up the rankings very quickly ie. in the first month of the season. This then meant that points weren't at all important to me.

From March onwards I would often find myself in a breakaway with a couple of miles out. The other riders would usually be desperate for the points - and I was known to prefer the money and be ready to do deals. A deal would usually done between the riders that left them to take the points - and me agreeing not to sprint/put in 100% in return for (usually all) a great % of the prize money.

This money effectively bankrolled my 'career' at the time and enabled me to have a bit of a life when sponsorship took care of cycling aspects.

This made me wonder - what the h*ll changed???

Why in a sport where winning/glory should have edged financial prospects in my mind was I 'throwing' races? Why then chase 'wins' at the felt in preference to cold hard cash - in a cash driven game....

So naturally I resolved that if no real glory is to be gained and my position dictates, then I should be open to deal.

Fast forward to last night. Down to the final 2. 1st - £525 2nd £240. He's on 66k and I'm on 56k. Before the dealer can throw down the first card - I ask for a deal!!!! Its late and the proposal is agreed to without hesitation. Again, another good FT played in a good spirit - and again another likeable opponent at the end. This time I'm coming away with more money though and feel a helluva lot better!!!!!

Thankyou for all your posts and thoughts on the subject! Keep them coming if you wish!

Interesting post, thanks