CASH - bad raise or good raise?

[temp0r]

it's a typical stars saturday .50/1 table. the only online cash i play at this level as i'm a tournament player. i was kinda sick when they all folded here. i'm basically building the pot cause everyone's pretty loose and i'm figuring if i get called and the club comes i'm able to lay it down. was the raise too stronger looking? even if it was shouldn't the flushies still call?!

PokerStars Game #11561578849:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/08/18 - 19:51:04 (ET)
Table 'Eridanus' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: SnnyListon ($96.80 in chips)
Seat 2: santa410 ($55.75 in chips)
Seat 3: balco013 ($59.40 in chips)
Seat 4: fishnchip99 ($111.35 in chips)
Seat 5: efialtis777 ($29 in chips)
Seat 6: Meer_Cat17 ($88.95 in chips)
Seat 7: metsfan2525 ($22 in chips)
Seat 8: Vzcouver ($97.50 in chips)
Seat 9: temp0r2k ($127.55 in chips)
SnnyListon: posts small blind $0.50
santa410: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to temp0r2k [ ]
balco013: folds
fishnchip99: folds
efialtis777: folds
Meer_Cat17: folds
metsfan2525: calls $1
Vzcouver: folds
temp0r2k: calls $1
SnnyListon: calls $0.50
santa410: checks
*** FLOP *** [ ]
SnnyListon: bets $3
santa410: calls $3
metsfan2525: calls $3
temp0r2k: calls $3
*** TURN *** [ ] []
SnnyListon: bets $3
santa410: calls $3
metsfan2525: calls $3
temp0r2k: raises $5 to $8
SnnyListon: folds
santa410: folds
metsfan2525: folds
temp0r2k collected $26.65 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $28 | Rake $1.35
Board [ ]
Seat 1: SnnyListon (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 2: santa410 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: balco013 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: fishnchip99 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: efialtis777 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Meer_Cat17 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: metsfan2525 folded on the Turn
Seat 8: Vzcouver folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: temp0r2k (button) collected ($26.65)

and for the record i'd normally raise the button here in a tournament and raise the flop in a tournament. i'm still adapting to cash atm.

[Moskvich]

Weird hand. I think you can only conclude that basically no-one else had anything much and you weren't going to get paid much more anyway.

I think I just flat-call the flop here too, as you don't really know how many of your outs are clean, and any high card or club on the turn, or the board pairing, could cause problems anyway. I think I make a bigger raise on the turn though. The weak lead from the first player on the turn could be weakness (seems to have been) but could also have been strength, looking for a raise behind him. Sets and 2 pairs possible. So to get paid I think you have to make it something like 16-18, given that pot is already 21. Club draw might still call, 2 pair or set might play back, and you're getting much more value for your hand.

[Smart Money]

The turn raise is far, far too small- just $5 more on top of a $24 pot. You can't offer someone drawing to a flush or higher straight (or full house!) a discount. You should really be raising close to the pot here and if you lose everyone so be it.

(At these levels, an "amatuer-ish" min raise on the flop (ala limit poker) often works well for the cheap river card- but calling is fine of course.)

[AlexMartin]

I think you can conclude the stars .50/.1 tables are some of the hardest cash stakes you will find. WTF are you playing there? Make a proper bet on the turn, small bets win small pots, big bets win big ones see.

[boldie]

I think you can conclude the stars .50/.1 tables are some of the hardest cash stakes you will find. WTF are you playing there? Make a proper bet on the turn, small bets win small pots, big bets win big ones see.

I agree..bet more if someone has something they will call anyways or reraise you even. Such a small bet does absolutely nothing for you even when someone has something you let them off cheap here.

[byronkincaid]

At these levels, an "amatuer-ish" min raise on the flop (ala limit poker) often works well for the cheap river card- but calling is fine of course.)

everyone does this on ipoker even red dog. i hate it, I know it's a bluff a lot but it's also a monster a lot too.

[Moskvich]

I think you can conclude the stars .50/.1 tables are some of the hardest cash stakes you will find.

What do you mean by this, just out of interest? I don't play cash there but was thinking about it. You mean they're soft, or nitty, or what..?

[temp0r]

I think you can conclude the stars .50/.1 tables are some of the hardest cash stakes you will find. WTF are you playing there? Make a proper bet on the turn, small bets win small pots, big bets win big ones see.

i'd been at this table an hour. it was fishy as fuck. thats why the raise was so small. do you still think it appears too strong? for the record if i'm called and the flush hits i'm able to lay this down. but that again sounds like a tournament player talking doesn't it?

[Moskvich]

If it's fishy, then you can charge them more for their draws, cos they'll call anyway. Also, the more you get in the pot on the turn then the more you can value bet on the river, and the more likely they will be to call with a hand that you beat (because they'll be seduced by the size of the pot). Raising the amount you did doesn't get you any value for your hand.

When it comes to you the pot's $25. You make your raise to $8 and get one call, making the pot $38. Maybe you can value bet for say $18 on the end and get a call. So you've made 25+5+18 = $48.

But if you raise the turn to $20 and get one call then the pot's already $62. One of your possible opponents would basically be all-in by this stage. But santa would have about $32 left, and SonnyListon would have about $70-odd.

If santa's got this far with, say, two pair or even a decent top pair, then you've got a fair chance of getting him all-in here. That would make you the original $25 plus another $17 on the turn plus $32 = $74. A half-pot value bet against SL would make you about the same amount, and giving that he'd already have more than half his stack in the pot he might stick the rest in as well. So therefore the difference between betting $8 and $20 on the turn becomes a difference of around $26 by the end of the hand - that's a quarter of a buy-in.

Of course, if the first player calls then it makes the pot more attractive to the second potential caller - and if they call too then you've taken the size of the pot completely out of their control and with a bit of luck you can go about merrily stacking people on the river.

I suppose the main point is that there's no point worrying too much about what the river might bring and whether you can lay the hand down, until and unless it comes to that. You don't have a 'tournament life' to worry about which might be a reason to control the pot even when you've got way the best of it. You just want to get as much in the pot as you can, so therefore you need, ideally, to bet the absolute most that they will call. (Of course, this depends on having a proper bankroll for the limit you're playing, so that you can absorb the extra loss if you get outdrawn).

The reason they didn't call here was because they didn't have anything, not because your raise looked strong and they immediately put you on the straight. Obviously anyone with a club draw or two pair is calling your raise here, because you've priced them in to do so. But they didn't have it.

[AlexMartin]

I think you can conclude the stars .50/.1 tables are some of the hardest cash stakes you will find. WTF are you playing there? Make a proper bet on the turn, small bets win small pots, big bets win big ones see.

i'd been at this table an hour. it was fishy as fuck. thats why the raise was so small. do you still think it appears too strong? for the record if i'm called and the flush hits i'm able to lay this down. but that again sounds like a tournament player talking doesn't it?

If its fishy as fuck, well done on finding a soft stars table, point 1. And yes i reckon the small raise looks too strong, make it chunkier, it looks less transparent in a mw pot. gl m8.