A couple of hands from Vegas

[Woodsey]

Just got back from Vegas and there's a few hands that have been bugging me since they happened- all comments welcome

Hand 1-    5/10 nl - I have about $3k and opponent has me covered. Opponent raises to $50 UTG and I call with 66 on the button, Flop J86 2 hearts. He bets $120, I raise to $300, he insta shoves and I insta call. He has JJ for top set, no help for me. The real question here is, this is a deep stack game, how deep do the stacks have to be to consider laying this down. I would normally just accept you will go bust here but I saw 2 strong players lay down sets both times in the same scenario and when I asked them why they said because the stacks were too deep. This scenario happened to me three times this week costing me about 7k in total.

Hand 2-    10/20nl - I have 4.5k and opponent has me covered. Two Early position limpers, opponent in mid position raises to $180, I find  on the button and RR to $580, both limpers pass and original raiser moves all after a brief think. I think for about 30 secs then call and he flips over  , no help for me. Same question as above, how deep do the stacks need to be to consider laying this down?

Hand 3-     5/10nl - I have about 1k, I raise $50 UTG with player to my left who has me covered calls and the rest fold. Flop is  , I bet $100, and opponent re-raises me to $350 and I pushed putting him on a overpair to the board. He thought for about 30 secs and then called showing QQ, no help for me. Was this the best play? I'm not a big fan of just calling here, its either push or fold depending on the player.

Ta for any comments

[TightEnd]

Hands 1 or 2 do you have any specific information on either player that would help you lay these down?

In the absence of that I don't care how deep the stacks are, you've got to go broke haven't you? Hand 1 especially.

Maybe I am wrong about Hand 2, what other hand would he push in with pre?..AK maybe not in that deep a game, QQ almost certainly not

Hand 3 whats wrong in deep stack cash with  call the re-raise, check call if the turn blanks for pot control and re-evaluate on the river?

Sure it gives your hand away but you escape cheaper. Very passive I accept.

[bhoywonder]

In my humble low stakes opinion ( i.e. fishlike )

the only hand you can get away from is hand 2...and thats unlikely also

any other laydowns and its scared poker which I'm sure you dont do

[bolt pp]

Hand 1- never a fold, set over set so rare, just a cold deck when it happens, i dont care how deep the stacks are

Hand 2- fold

Hand 3 - hand 3 i think you played ok, live cash game in vegas, you got like 18 outs and got your money in first, unlucky

[Woodsey]

Hands 1 or 2 do you have any specific information on either player that would help you lay these down?

In the absence of that I don't care how deep the stacks are, you've got to go broke haven't you? Hand 1 especially.

Maybe I am wrong about Hand 2, what other hand would he push in with pre?..AK maybe not in that deep a game, QQ almost certainly not

Hand 3 whats wrong in deep stack cash with  call the re-raise, check call if the turn blanks for pot control and re-evaluate on the river?

Sure it gives your hand away but you escape cheaper. Very passive I accept.

In all the scenarios I didn't have alot of info to go on as the tables were all very TAG and not too many hands were shown. The reason I'm asking the question is because I'm sure I've read somewhere that depending on stack size it does affect whether you should make calls in these situations more so the KK hand than the set. In hindsight with the KK hand and thinking about it since I would have instacalled with anything up to 2k. With more than that I have to think about it, but with 4.5k I will probably fold next time, it just ain't worth it I'll wait for a better chance for my whole stack.

Also as mentioned I did see people make the same lay downs I couldn't and it was affected by the deep stacks and probably info on the player they had aswell. I saw a guy at my table with an 6k stack lay down 2nd set to another player with top set, relatively quickly in fact but he said he would have called if he had less in front of him.

In hand 3 I wasn't that deep really, and would have just called if my stack was deeper and try and catch the spade, but I thought if he did have an overpair to the board I'm 60% or so favourite plus the smallish chance he could fold. Of course if he has a set or straight its a different matter.

[Woodsey]

Hand 1- never a fold, set over set so rare, just a cold deck when it happens, i dont care how deep the stacks are

Hand 2- fold

Hand 3 - hand 3 i think you played ok, live cash game in vegas, you got like 18 outs and got your money in first, unlucky

I got done 3 times this week with set over set for over 7k, it just left me scratching my head a bit as I always say instacall in that situation. But when I see very strong players making the laydown it left me wondering?

[Smart Money]

Firstly, I'm presuming all these hands are at full-handed tables.

The deeper stacked you are, the harder your decisions.

Starting with Hand 3: You played it perfectly. Worse case scenario, your flush draw is good. Gut shot is 95% good, Over cards are 50%+ good. Your 100BB stack makes it an easy shove with a decent amount of fold equity too.

Hand 1: This is not an automatic case of going bust. You have 300BB!!! If you know nothing about your opponent, then it's a trickier decision. However, it doesn't take long to assess your opponents when playing live- even if you haven't seen them play a hand. Your opponent would have to be f**king awful to push here with an overpair. So if he's not that poor, what can he have that you beat? (You have to ask yourself this question. It's not sufficient to think "Well I have a set. It's a no brainer.") Just about nothing, unless you think he's shoving 300BB with a flush draw. It's not even a cooler at 300BB. It's a fold.

Hand 2: 225BB with KK is an easy fold pre-flop against all but the loosest of fish. (100BB is too much to call pre-flop with KK in ring at a "typical online table" at mid-stakes and above- although most disagree. )

[Woodsey]

Firstly, I'm presuming all these hands are at full-handed tables.

The deeper stacked you are, the harder your decisions.

Starting with Hand 3: You played it perfectly. Worse case scenario, your flush draw is good. Gut shot is 95% good, Over cards are 50%+ good. Your 100BB stack makes it an easy shove with a decent amount of fold equity too.

Hand 1: This is not an automatic case of going bust. You have 300BB!!! If you know nothing about your opponent, then it's a trickier decision. However, it doesn't take long to assess your opponents when playing live- even if you haven't seen them play a hand. Your opponent would have to be f**king awful to push here with an overpair. So if he's not that poor, what can he have that you beat? (You have to ask yourself this question. It's not sufficient to think "Well I have a set. It's a no brainer.") Just about nothing, unless you think he's shoving 300BB with a flush draw. It's not even a cooler at 300BB. It's a fold.

Hand 2: 225BB with KK is an easy fold pre-flop against all but the loosest of fish. (100BB is too much to call pre-flop with KK in ring at a "typical online table" at mid-stakes and above- although most disagree. )

I accept that with the KK hand now and should have thought for longer. The set is different though, TBH I rarely play games where so many players are that deep and don't recall anyone ever shoving for so much with the nuts at that point. I did have a situation earlier in the week when I had a set and he re-shoved all in on the flop with AK on a K high flop for a similar sized pot and that probably influenced me. Also I don't recall ever having passed a set on the flop before, I'm sure I have but it would have had to have been a flippin scary flop.

[Moskvich]

Also I don't recall ever having passed a set on the flop before, I'm sure I have but it would have had to have been a flippin scary flop.

Isn't there a case for saying that this is the wrong way round? if you flop a set of sixes on a flop and opponent shoves, there's a wide range of hands he could be doing this with (combo draws, AA with the heart), and you've got a redraw against made flushes or straights too. If he shoves when deep on a relatively uncoordinated board, then his range has to be narrower and you're pretty much dead to a far greater percentage of his range (ie a higher set).