Deductions from Tournament Prize Pools - are they acceptable to you?

[Jon MW]

I think I saw a suggestion that they did something similar at the Grosvenor in Brighton when I went for the first leg of the APAT regional tournaments, so I don't know if it's generally widespread amongst Grosvenor casinos.

In previous national APAT tournaments (and blonde Bashes) the first thing I've looked at is what other tournaments are on over the period that I'm in town.

If I have the time and the funds, and like the look of the tournament, I'm eager to get as much live experience as I can - but I now know to look out for these deductions, and no matter how positively a tournament scores in the other factors - I'm not going to play in any tournament when any of the entry fee isn't returned in the prize fund.

[tikay]

I think I saw a suggestion that they did something similar at the Grosvenor in Brighton when I went for the first leg of the APAT regional tournaments, so I don't know if it's generally widespread amongst Grosvenor casinos.

In previous national APAT tournaments (and blonde Bashes) the first thing I've looked at is what other tournaments are on over the period that I'm in town.

If I have the time and the funds, and like the look of the tournament, I'm eager to get as much live experience as I can - but I now know to look out for these deductions, and no matter how positively a tournament scores in the other factors - I'm not going to play in any tournament when any of the entry fee isn't returned in the prize fund.

A great Post by Jon.

Prize Pools always have been, & should remain, sacrosant. This is the thin end of the wedge, & before long, monies will be removed for all manner of "promotions" which the punters - who are the OWNERS of the Prize pool - have no say in.

[kenjude]

Another "no" here.

Was this league thingy the reason there was a bloody big box with flat screen TV being played for in the Luton card room on the day of the 1st APAT regional?

[tikay]

Another "no" here.

Was this league thingy the reason there was a bloody big box with flat screen TV being played for in the Luton card room on the day of the 1st APAT regional?

I imagine so.

As I never qualified, it's hypothetical in my case, but I could not have played anyway, as I had work committments elsewhere, & I have no use, desire or need for a flat screen TV. Which I helped to pay for......! Not because I'm kind & caring, (well, some might say....) but because someone took it upon themselves to use MY money to conrtribute towards a Prize I never wanted & could never win.

[kenjude]

I fully agree with you Tikay.

The casino management are a strange bunch (by which I don't mean the card room staff Who I've found to be generally excellent). I sent a thankyou after the regional, via their website, because I enjoyed it so much and thought the dealers did such an excellent job (as they had at the European Amateur Championships in August) and that they deserved to be thanked.

I hope they got it, but I have no idea whether they did or not because the venue (or whoever deals with queries via the web site) chooses not to bother acknowledging receipt of stuff. It was the same with my first attempt to contact them that way much earlier in the year at a time when I was still a potential customer who had yet to set foot in their door.

It's all a very odd way to deal with your customers, however  infrequent a visitor they may be.

[Michigan Jeff]

Great post and great responses.

I vote NO as well.

I am sure the one person who voted yes made a  misclick on their mouse.

Luton numbers are strong and would be even stronger if it was not for league (stealing from the prizepool) contributions.

[kinboshi]

I fully agree with you Tikay.

The casino management are a strange bunch (by which I don't mean the card room staff Who I've found to be generally excellent). I sent a thankyou after the regional, via their website, because I enjoyed it so much and thought the dealers did such an excellent job (as they had at the European Amateur Championships in August) and that they deserved to be thanked.

I hope they got it, but I have no idea whether they did or not because the venue (or whoever deals with queries via the web site) chooses not to bother acknowledging receipt of stuff. It was the same with my first attempt to contact them that way much earlier in the year at a time when I was still a potential customer who had yet to set foot in their door.

It's all a very odd way to deal with your customers, however  infrequent a visitor they may be.

That's probably just a fault with their website and the people who manage it.  Every time I've pre-registered for a casino online, I've turned up and had to fill in a form with all the same details on it again as they haven't received the form I submitted online.

Most of the casino sites are just poor in general.  To get directions to a casino (which is often what many people want to do), it's usually easier to use a third-party site than the official site.  If you're looking for the poker tournaments they are running - best of luck to you if you use their sites. 

This is another area I expect/hope DTD will out-perform the rest.

[Indestructable]

I came accross this in Brighton recently. To be fair to them they did announce this before the tourney. I did think it was unfair for those players like me that can't or have not chosen to take part in the league. I didn't query this, but wonder what would have happened if I had objected. As it happened i bombed out so forgot all about it until this thread.

[AlrightJack]

Why should I be held to ransom to support the Grosvenor marketing machine. This machine is failing badly in my opinion and let's be honest not just mine. Yes I know they are going to have to spend money topping up the pool but this promotion was just foisted upon us. If there were a dtd in this area it would just clean up.

If this were my operation I would be out of head office and listening to the punters. Maybe they would if everybody boycotted the UKGPT for one tourney. One more rthing if the session charges were increased so that the cardrooms made money in their own right why do I pay twice once for the room and once for the marketing of the room.

Very disillusioned as to how they can be treating customers in this way.........too much power in the marketplace.

The decision to run leagues is made at a local cardroom level and is in no way a directive of the 'Grosvenor marketing machine' as you put it. These are local decisions, not a bi-product of a national situation of Grosvenor having 'too much power in the marketplace?'

If you don't like these leagues, speak to the managers involved. It might surprise you to find out that they do listen. Since September 1st there has been greater freedom for cardrooms to run tournaments, leagues, etc in different ways. There is clearly a degree of experimentation going on. Everything eventually finds it's level and if some of the new ideas about how to run certain events are unpopular and there is enough dissent, I'm sure they will be changed or not run again in the future.

Why do you think the GUKPT has great slow structures, a deep stack and is encouraging improved dealing standards within the whole estate? Because we do listen to what players want. I have been well out of head office and in the cardrooms for much of the last three years and I do report back what I hear. Russell Tamplin, the current National Head of Poker at Grosvenor is very forward thinking and does take on board what customers want. It is still a business though - don't expect poker to be run for free. Anyone who has played tournament poker in the USA will testify that the tournament fees charged/deductions made are far higher over there than they are in the UK. Tournament poker in the UK is generally good value for money.

As for whether a dtd in the area would clean up, lets see how they do once they've actually opened. How exactly has a club that is not even open yet suddenly become a benchmark for high standards? I know Simon Trumper is listening to players and will run a good show, but within the poker world there is no single consensus on how things should be run. What pleases some people displeases others.There will likely be ways that dtd run things that not everyone will like.

[RioRodent]

Me and a mate had started playing the Friday night £75 freezeout at Luton and were planning on making it a 'regular' trip (albeit only once a month). But after finding out about this League deduction on the last visit, after the tournament had started, we have decided not to play there anymore so long as this is going on.

[Jon MW]

...

The decision to run leagues is made at a local cardroom level and is in no way a directive of the 'Grosvenor marketing machine' ...

If you don't like these leagues, speak to the managers involved. It might surprise you to find out that they do listen. ...

It is interesting that it is a decision made at a local level.

However the problem is that I suspect that the majority of people who play in any one of the local casinos does not post on a poker forum, doesn't realise that they have any such influence and will just take what is offered to them without giving it that much thought as to whether it could be done better or not.

So I think there is a certain imperative that the managers involved don't experiment too much and just get it right to start with.

...

Why do you think the GUKPT has great slow structures, a deep stack and is encouraging improved dealing standards within the whole estate? Because we do listen to what players want.
...

And just to prove you can sometimes get positive feedback, somebody in my office doesn't play poker at all - but he is watching some of the GUKPT programmes, so you've obviously got something right there. 

(Tellingly he says that he would watch all the episodes if they were on at a more sensible time, but I know that it isn't in your control)

[owen1923]

I dont have an issue with leagues, they can and do encourage people to play more.  But I do agree that taking a cut of regular tourney prize pools to finance them is out of order.  i have never played in Luton or Walsall, but hope to one day soon, and when I do Id like to think I was playing for a cut of the total prize pool, we pay the charges to play in Grosvenor, that should be enough.

Leagues do not benefit all players, therefore the players who wish to participate are the ones who should carry any additional costs.

My local Grosvenor has a jackpot accumulator every tournament, where decent prizes are paid for a variety of hands at the final table, but it is paid for by the players, and not every player enters or is interested in it, therefore it costs players who will gain nothing, nothing.

We have had some decent leagues up here but they were funded purley by the casino, who in return benefited from sell out weekend tournaments, well supported midweek tournaments and a great deal more opportunity for these extra players to play the house games.

By the way I agree with the earlier comment about speaking to local management, I find the card room manager at our local Grosvenor receptive to sugestions, and quite constructive in her outlook.

[GlasgowBandit]

I don't mind cardooms operating leagues but I am vehmently opposed to them stripping the prize pool to fund these leagues. 

The league, IMO should be an incentive to regular players, it should be added money not money deducted from the players.

[Laxie]

Can the casinos not have one night a week set aside specifically for the league?     In one of the pubs we have a league night and there's an extra charge to everyone on that night.  Everyone knows it and they know they can show up any of the other 6 nights of the week for no added charge. 

[AlexMartin]

It was a good idea but inappropriate for Luton. I wish they could get the basics right before going the complex stuff wrong. The staff are fantastic, but i think they need a leader. Im looking forward to the comp though