APAT Tournament Hand of the Week: November 5th

[MANTIS01]

I played in the APAT in Walsall on Saturday and this hand cropped up. I am interested in opinions....

I have increased my 10,000 starting chips up to 18,500. I have been playing safe and solid.

This hand occurs after the first break when the blinds were 200/400. I have just had my starting table broken and find myself in the cut-off position at my new table ready to be dealt my first hand.

The Hand

A player from middle position enters the pot with a limp, he has a stack of around 20,000 but seems a bit unsure and tentative. When the action reaches us we look down in the cut-off to see...

   

What are your initial thoughts when you see this hand? If you are playing confidently do you enjoy the opportunity to get involved with suited connectors?

I decide to call the 400 and see what develops. The button and the sb fold and the bb checks his option so we go to the flop with 1,400 chips in the pot.

The Flop

     

What are your thoughts about the flop and how you would like this hand to develop from here?

The bb checks...the mid position limper then fires in an aggressive 1,500 chip bet. What do you think of this bet and what would you do?

Further action and the turn will come later in the week...

[Graham C]

I like playing hands like this if I can limp in but normally I like at least two other limpers just to make it a bit better value, but that's not to say that I wouldn't have called anyway, sometimes those connected diamonds are just too purdy to discard straight away!

I think the flops come quite nice for you.   Based on your comments on the player re unsure and tentative and the overly agressive bet on the flop, I think he may have regretted not raising preflop and now the board looks a bit dangerous for him.   Perhaps he has AK or pocket aces, queens or jacks.  I would put him on something decent here but I think you are ahead.   

I'd call here and see what he does on the turn, but I'd be looking to raise any bet he may make and bet should he not bet.

[LuckyLloyd]

Preflop is ok. Effective stacks are deep enough to limp behind. I think I would make it 1400 myself as I'd prefer to isolate the bad player - but limping is ok.

On the flop - raise the overbet. Bottom two is not something to be slowplayed on this type of board. I dont think mp limper is on a draw because players who limp preflop with 50BB stacks generally prefer to checkcall or block bet their draws. But you will surely get it in here against AK / KQ / KJ and there is no reason to want the BB to tag along - so I would make it 5000 and snapcall a shove.

[NoflopsHomer]

Preflop is ok. Effective stacks are deep enough to limp behind. I think I would make it 1400 myself as I'd prefer to isolate the bad player - but limping is ok.

On the flop - raise the overbet. Bottom two is not something to be slowplayed on this type of board. I dont think mp limper is on a draw because players who limp preflop with 50BB stacks generally prefer to checkcall or block bet their draws. But you will surely get it in here against AK / KQ / KJ and there is no reason to want the BB to tag along - so I would make it 5000 and snapcall a shove.

Totally agree here.

[TightEnd]

triple his bet to 4,500

if he shoves then you are calling. I think

[George2Loose]

I would raise in position pre flop- I like mixing up my play pre flop.

I'd put him on hand range KQ, KJ, J10 and maybe even QJ or K10. Being in position I'd take a card off. Sounds a bit cautious but I like to see a turn card on a board like this for two reasons.

Pot control- I don't want to build a huge pot unless I'm sure I have the best hand.

I don't want to race- if he has a flush draw and re shoves my raise I probably have to call and race. By taking a card off I can re evaluate on the turn if a "safe" card hits and if he checks I can out price him with a strong turn bet.

[AlexMartin]

This is a truly marginal spot i think. I raise preflop in this spot most of the time. No strength has been shown and im happy to outplay mid pos limper if he comes for the ride. I dont want 2 random hands to compete with. With 2+ limpers i limp too. Flop is actually pretty horrible, bottom 2 on this kind of connected board is a hand you could well be going broke with. His overbet i am reading as a protective bet and put matey on AK/KQ. Deffo read dependant this one. More than likely im jamming to stop a scare card shutting down my action. I want KQ and AK in now. I dont want to gamble on a club, 8JQK or A coming and putting me in a really tough spot.

V a strong solid player i deffo raise pre to find his hand strength.

[lazaroonie]

if you are not going to play after hitting two pair on the flop after calling a raise with (relative) garbage, then you should never have called the pre-flop raise in the first place.

i mean, what are you expecting to hit - a straight flush ?

moral of the tale is if you are not confident playing marginal positions post flop, then only play premium hands preflop.

[boldie]

preflop it's a raise or a fold and definetly not a limp for me. There's no value in playing the hands as suited connectors as you'd need more limpers into the pot so you might as well play position only..and that means raising it up here and getting the blinds out of the way.

On the flop I call knowing he could well be on the FD or have JQ or K10 that is beating me...more often than not he doesn't but the snap pot-sized bet (this is not an overbet by any stretch of the imagination for me) on this flop from a nervous player ussually means he's hit and he's looking to get paid. I'm not ruling out AK here but there's about 0% chance that he has KJ here as his bet would have been smaller or he would have checked to you..that's what tentative players tend to do.

I could raise here and find myself putting all my chips in the middle with bottom two pair when I call an all-in or even donking off 5k here by raising and folding to an all-in (There is simply no way in a tourney that on this board caling an all in is a good thing to do when you have this many chips..in fact I would argue it's suicide so the re-raise fold to all in is the better option here) but I prefer to now flat call and play it like I am on a draw.

If the club comes or even a J or Q (let alone a 9 or 10) I bet out as if I have the straight, flush or set (in my case obviously full house but he won't know that) It's a matter of outplaying the guy on this board rather than outdonking him but sticking in 45BB's on this board with bottom two pair.

o raise pre-flop..with this action flatcall the flop.

[LuckyLloyd]

Pot control- I don't want to build a huge pot unless I'm sure I have the best hand.

I don't want to race- if he has a flush draw and re shoves my raise I probably have to call and race. By taking a card off I can re evaluate on the turn if a "safe" card hits and if he checks I can out price him with a strong turn bet.

Ok, I don't like some of the tournament life syndrome posts in this thread. The above is particularly bad IMO:

- We can never be "sure" we have the best hand unless we only ever get money in preflop with AA and postflop with the actual nuts. All we can do is assess the various range of hands our opponent can have and compare how our actual hand does against such a range in terms of expected equity. We then compare that equity to the pot equity or price we are receiving and base our decisions on that assessment. If it's plus cEV when we break it down we need to get it in. And sometimes when we consider the range and tendencies of our opponent and have enough chips behind we can factor in some fold equity if we raise which can help weight things from a fold to a call if we can conclude that we win a pot without showdown and get better hands to fold often enough.

This is a complex guessing game - but poker is, as Harrington, Sklansky, Flynn etc like to emphasise over and over, a game of incomplete information. We can't always get it right on the spot of course - but if we learn to think about our hands in the right way after the fact we can eventually reach a point where we have run the numbers often enough to have a good feel for what is plus or minus EV in the heat of battle;




- Talk of waiting until a "safe" card peels on the turn before getting money in is pure craziness. If this guy decided to turn over AcXc while you are thinking and informs you that he would like to get it in and gamble you should be in quicker than Flynn with a fistpump. We would be getting the best of it to "race" with two cards coming and be delighted at the villian's kind offer to get our stack in so good.

The value in playing APAT events springs from the added live tournament seat added to the top of the prizepool. In terms of enough cash to cover the expense of travel and accomodation that many players burden when attending these events - plus the consideration of your time - means that only the top three spots should interest you from a monetary perspective. Therefore, in order to make money from these events and maximise your expectation in terms of money: you need to take every single equity edge in terms of chips.

Right up until the tournament becomes three or four handed +cEV is going to equal +$EV. As such we don't want to be slowplaying this specific situation. Further considerations come from the fact that APAT events actually have a very flawed tournament structure that ensure things get very crapshooty at the business end. It is deceptively fast with huge level jumps later on in the tournament due to the lack of a 500 / 1000 level; 1200 / 2400; 2500 / 5000. Being comfortably chipped at this stage is absolutely irrelevant. We will need to double our stack a number of times if we want to be competative at the final table. And finally, we are only 46BBs deep at the start of this hand which is not really that important of a stack in any case.





- A bet of 1500 here is unlikely to be a draw. But it is also unlikely to be a set or a better two pair. In my view, you can significantly lean his range in this spot to AA. AK. KQ, KJ. For him to have those hands and stack off with them he would need to be a weak player. But:

- weak players limp from early or mid position once the blinds go beyond the first three levels;
- weak players overbet strong one pair hands on drawy boards because "ZOMG I CAN'T LET HIM DRAW!!!!!!!"
- weak players will sometimes appear unsure and tentative;
- weak players make up most of a standard APAT field;


If he has one of the above hands I listed we really want to get money in now. Any K; Q; J; Club will either outdraw our hand or kill or action. The best time for us to get full value from hands we beat is now on the flop. There is also a part of his range which is pure bluffs but I think it is a minor percentage usually and we may end up folding the best hand on the turn or river if he double or triple barrells cards we don't like.


To not raise here you need to think about the type of hands he may have; and decide that there are far more hands in his range on the flop that have you beat than which you beat. I personally cannot see how you could reach such a conclusion given the information available to us - BUT, if you do then you CANNOT CALL THIS BET WITHOUT A CLEAR IDEA OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO FURTHER ACTION ON THE TURN OR RIVER.

As I said, this is a really bad spot to turn a vulnerable hand like bottom two into a bluff catcher, so for all of you scared that you may be behind and assigning a range to villian where bottom two is in trouble - I suggest that you actually fold to the flop bet; or call intending to fold to one more barrell on the turn or river.

[George2Loose]

Pot control- I don't want to build a huge pot unless I'm sure I have the best hand.

I don't want to race- if he has a flush draw and re shoves my raise I probably have to call and race. By taking a card off I can re evaluate on the turn if a "safe" card hits and if he checks I can out price him with a strong turn bet.

Ok, I don't like some of the tournament life syndrome posts in this thread. The above is particularly bad IMO:

- We can never be "sure" we have the best hand unless we only ever get money in preflop with AA and postflop with the actual nuts. All we can do is assess the various range of hands our opponent can have and compare how our actual hand does against such a range in terms of expected equity. We then compare that equity to the pot equity or price we are receiving and base our decisions on that assessment. If it's plus cEV when we break it down we need to get it in. And sometimes when we consider the range and tendencies of our opponent and have enough chips behind we can factor in some fold equity if we raise which can help weight things from a fold to a call if we can conclude that we win a pot without showdown and get better hands to fold often enough.

This is a complex guessing game - but poker is, as Harrington, Sklansky, Flynn etc like to emphasise over and over, a game of incomplete information. We can't always get it right on the spot of course - but if we learn to think about our hands in the right way after the fact we can eventually reach a point where we have run the numbers often enough to have a good feel for what is plus or minus EV in the heat of battle;




- Talk of waiting until a "safe" card peels on the turn before getting money in is pure craziness. If this guy decided to turn over AcXc while you are thinking and informs you that he would like to get it in and gamble you should be in quicker than Flynn with a fistpump. We would be getting the best of it to "race" with two cards coming and be delighted at the villian's kind offer to get our stack in so good.

The value in playing APAT events springs from the added live tournament seat added to the top of the prizepool. In terms of enough cash to cover the expense of travel and accomodation that many players burden when attending these events - plus the consideration of your time - means that only the top three spots should interest you from a monetary perspective. Therefore, in order to make money from these events and maximise your expectation in terms of money: you need to take every single equity edge in terms of chips.

Right up until the tournament becomes three or four handed +cEV is going to equal +$EV. As such we don't want to be slowplaying this specific situation. Further considerations come from the fact that APAT events actually have a very flawed tournament structure that ensure things get very crapshooty at the business end. It is deceptively fast with huge level jumps later on in the tournament due to the lack of a 500 / 1000 level; 1200 / 2400; 2500 / 5000. Being comfortably chipped at this stage is absolutely irrelevant. We will need to double our stack a number of times if we want to be competative at the final table. And finally, we are only 46BBs deep at the start of this hand which is not really that important of a stack in any case.





- A bet of 1500 here is unlikely to be a draw. But it is also unlikely to be a set or a better two pair. In my view, you can significantly lean his range in this spot to AA. AK. KQ, KJ. For him to have those hands and stack off with them he would need to be a weak player. But:

- weak players limp from early or mid position once the blinds go beyond the first three levels;
- weak players overbet strong one pair hands on drawy boards because "ZOMG I CAN'T LET HIM DRAW!!!!!!!"
- weak players will sometimes appear unsure and tentative;
- weak players make up most of a standard APAT field;


If he has one of the above hands I listed we really want to get money in now. Any K; Q; J; Club will either outdraw our hand or kill or action. The best time for us to get full value from hands we beat is now on the flop. There is also a part of his range which is pure bluffs but I think it is a minor percentage usually and we may end up folding the best hand on the turn or river if he double or triple barrells cards we don't like.


To not raise here you need to think about the type of hands he may have; and decide that there are far more hands in his range on the flop that have you beat than which you beat. I personally cannot see how you could reach such a conclusion given the information available to us - BUT, if you do then you CANNOT CALL THIS BET WITHOUT A CLEAR IDEA OF WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO FURTHER ACTION ON THE TURN OR RIVER.

As I said, this is a really bad spot to turn a vulnerable hand like bottom two into a bluff catcher, so for all of you scared that you may be behind and assigning a range to villian where bottom two is in trouble - I suggest that you actually fold to the flop bet; or call intending to fold to one more barrell on the turn or river.

Speak to Phil Helmuth who plays small ball about +EV play- he has 11 bracelets in hold em- there's more then one way to skin a cat. I personally would like to avoid getting my money in against a flush draw here.

[LuckyLloyd]

Speak to Phil Helmuth who plays small ball about +EV play- he has 11 bracelets in hold em- there's more then one way to skin a cat. I personally would like to avoid getting my money in against a flush draw here.

 

[boldie]

getting all your chips in here when you are this deepstacked on a race is simply a stupid play IMO There is no need for it and it's a ure fire way to donking out of a tourney early.

[Longy]

I raise this hand preflop over 1 limper to isolate the limper in the hand who sounds likely to fold and also we can bet him off a missed flop, i would have thought this is more +ev than limping.

As for the flop I'm raising the overbet with the intention of getting it in hopefully on the flop ,to my mind i make it 6000 showing i mean business and not wanting to see a turn where a load of scare cards can hit and kill the action. As Lloyd pointed out this overbet looks like a made hand but the point is does he stack ak,kq if a club rolls off the turn.

Speak to Phil Helmuth who plays small ball about +EV play- he has 11 bracelets in hold em- there's more then one way to skin a cat. I personally would like to avoid getting my money in against a flush draw here.

Erm trying to mirror Phil Hellmuth is fair enough but as Phil may well point out villan rarely if ever has a flush draw here unless its kx of diamonds.

getting all your chips in here when you are this deepstacked on a race is simply a stupid play IMO There is no need for it and it's a ure fire way to donking out of a tourney early.

Wow this is horribly weak tight and misguided imo. Firstly we have stack of fold equity here to more than compensate for the fact we maybe racing and i reckon our hand is most of the time is a 60/40 fave here which is more than enough equity to me.

Lloyd's post is an excellent one and as he correctly points out you have to be gunning to finish top 3 in these tournament therefore any equity edge even early in the tournament should not be passed up.

Some of the posts on here seem to assume we are superstar poker players who don't need to gamble as we have such an advantage over the field, come off it. As this kind of attitude seems to be exactly the leak in most APAT players (basing this on others comments).
 

[boldie]

I raise this hand preflop over 1 limper to isolate the limper in the hand who sounds likely to fold and also we can bet him off a missed flop, i would have thought this is more +ev than limping.

As for the flop I'm raising the overbet with the intention of getting it in hopefully on the flop ,to my mind i make it 6000 showing i mean business and not wanting to see a turn where a load of scare cards can hit and kill the action. As Lloyd pointed out this overbet looks like a made hand but the point is does he stack ak,kq if a club rolls off the turn.

Speak to Phil Helmuth who plays small ball about +EV play- he has 11 bracelets in hold em- there's more then one way to skin a cat. I personally would like to avoid getting my money in against a flush draw here.

Erm trying to mirror Phil Hellmuth is fair enough but as Phil may well point out villan rarely if ever has a flush draw here unless its kx of diamonds.

getting all your chips in here when you are this deepstacked on a race is simply a stupid play IMO There is no need for it and it's a ure fire way to donking out of a tourney early.

Wow this is horribly weak tight and misguided imo. Firstly we have stack of fold equity here to more than compensate for the fact we maybe racing and i reckon our hand is most of the time is a 60/40 fave here which is more than enough equity to me.

Lloyd's post is an excellent one and as he correctly points out you have to be gunning to finish top 3 in these tournament therefore any equity edge even early in the tournament should not be passed up.

Some of the posts on here seem to assume we are superstar poker players who don't need to gamble as we have such an advantage over the field, come off it. As this kind of attitude seems to be exactly the leak in most APAT players (basing this on others comments).
 

how do you have fold equity when you stick all your chips in the middle? The reason I flat call is because I WANT the scare card to come down. (as per my original post which I suggest you should quote and not my second one only)
 I will not be sticking 45 BB's in the middle on this board at this stage of the tourney with bottom two pair so I know I won't call an all-in reraise against this oppo (most of the time) as I have him on a hand that is more than likely to already beat me..not a hand that's on a FD.

Like I said I always raise this pre-flop because I'm playing position on this situation..I would continue to play position more than anything else against this oppo on this board because of my "read" on this sort of oppo sticking in a snap bet. I think he's ahead here simply because of the way he's described by Mantis.

BTW..thanks for calling me weak-tight..it's been a while since I've been caled that by anyone ..