Observation and tells @ the table

[kinboshi]

Another thread brought up the topic of tells and reading people at the table.  It got me thinking about the value of tells, and if they are over-rated/valued, or if they're the difference between some good players and some very good players.

As many people play predominately online, betting patterns are probably what many look out for first and foremost.

A question to the seasoned live players (and those who might not be as well seasoned), when you sit at a table do you have a 'checklist' of points you look out for or do you just try to observe everything you can and decipher what you can?  If someone was making the move to live play from online what one bit of advice would you give them with regards to observation at the table?

[Claw75]

if i reraise I have the nuts.  Fold.

[kinboshi]

if i reraise I have the nuts two cards.  Fold.

FYP

[Claw75]

if i reraise I have the nuts two cards.  Fold.

FYP

glad to see you agree with the fold.

[boldie]

if i reraise I have the nuts two cards.  Fold.

FYP

glad to see you agree with the fold.

kin is tight weak though.

[Claw75]

if i reraise I have the nuts two cards.  Fold.

FYP

glad to see you agree with the fold.

kin is tight weak though.

you clearly know him more intimately than I do.

[boldie]

if i reraise I have the nuts two cards.  Fold.

FYP

glad to see you agree with the fold.

kin is tight weak though.

you clearly know him more intimately than I do.

or I just look at him from a different position?

[kinboshi]

 

[RED-DOG]

Apart from an old guy who exposed his cards every time he looked at them, I have never noticed a reliable tell, ever.

[kinboshi]

Apart from an old guy who exposed his cards every time he looked at them, I have never noticed a reliable tell, ever.

So you don't rely on them as part of your game?

[AdamM]

I rely on physical info at least as much as betting patterns. Masking the strength of your hand by varying your betting is much easier than controling your physiology.

It's obviously not like in the movies
when he has hand A he touches body part B

In my post on the KK thread I wrote this...

In my martial arts group we spend a lot of time discussing body language. Reading aggressive and passive signals in others and learning to spot when those signals are fake or exaggerated. Also sometimes trying to appear passive when poised to throw your knockout hook, or conversely, trying to psych someone out with aggression, when you'd rather it not get physical. Sounds a lot like poker to me.

The old advice is sound. when you're not in a hand, practice putting active players on cards based on betting patterns AND behaviour / body language.

Something I did from early on in my live poker is make sure I got to the bar early and keep my eyes and ears peeled. This is another overlap with the martial arts. I know it sounds paranoid, but a good martial artist should be assessing almost everyone around them for threat levels. It mostly happens on a subconscious level until a potential threat is picked up, then it snaps into a conscious assessment. Again, poker is the same.
How a player conducts himself at the bar, buying in, taking his seat, arranging his chips, looking at his cards, etc are all building a picture before your first clash with him. Mostly these things will be going on subconsciously but the odd thing will attract your attention. You're using these 'feelings' about a player to assist in your decision making later on.

Applying some of this to the OP hand, an analogy would be;
Him quietly - "Give me your money!"
You calmly but forcefully - "You've picked the wrong guy to mug here mate, I'm quite handy."
Him Frothing at the mouth -
"I HAVE A GUN AND I'M GOING TO SHOOT YOU IN THE FACE!!!!"
Now you can either hope he actually only has a banana in his pocket and stand and fight, or you can give him the benefit of the doubt and run for the hills, waiting for the next time when the conversation goes;

Him quietly - "Give me your money!"
You calmly but forcefully - "You've picked the wrong guy to mug here mate, I'm quite handy."
Him Meekly - Sorry to bother you mate, I'll go and pick on someone else"

you're looking to build a picture of your opponents' behaviours and you're trying to understand why they play like they do.

The Psychology Of Poker by Schoonmaker is one of the most influencial poker books I've ever read.

[ifm]

I believe the only true reads can be taken from betting patterns and knowledge of how they have played previous hands, forget all this eye contact, shakey hands, nervous tick rubbish.

[AdamM]

i disagree.

The more nervous a player is, the more info they give off physically.

Some people are better at masking their physiology than other.

[TightEnd]

Against certain players I play against a lot tells are gold dust

Against others, of a higher standard, they are useless

More players also employ reverse tells these days

Its player dependent but against randoms I would proceed with caution but Kinboshi for example I see loads that turn out to be reliable when watching an APAT National for example

[kinboshi]

You have a tell on me.  If I'm betting, I've got a good hand .

But seriously, in the APAT events many of the players are new to the game (including me), and I've benefited from reading players a number of times (once quite dramatically). 

So if you're not worried about studying people for 'tells', what do you start looking for when watching their game?  Do you try to look for general things from each player - working out who's loose, who's tight, etc., or do you start on a few players at the table and try to take more specific notes on them such as how they play their drawing hands, how the play from certain positions, etc.?