Cash HotW: 12th November

[Bongo]

Hi everyone, totalise is feeling a bit under the weather this week, so I'm substituting with a hand I recently played on blonde, please accept my apologies in advance for boring you all senseless

6 Handed No Limit Holdem, 50c/$1 blinds.

SB - $238.50 - Won his stack with a bad call, hitting a 2 outer on the river, seems a bad player
BB $148.45 Not that strong a player, a bit loose (mostly passive) preflop. Likes suited cards. In the first few hands at the table I hit runner runner 2 pair against his flopped 2 pair and got called a "lucky fool". I get the feeling he thinks he is far better than he is.
UTG - $117.30 - Pretty standard
Hero - $127.55 - I've been pretty active, raising most cards I like the look of and particularly targeting the limps of the BB with slightly bigger than normal raises
CO - $19.85 short stack
Button - $97.95 - Seems pretty standard, has reraised me once, I folded to flop bet having missed.

Preflop:
UTG folds and I find  . I make it $3, which has been my standard raise in unopened pots so far. I'm pleased to see the CO and button fold, giving me position throughout the hand. SB folds and BB calls my raise. (Would anyone do anything different preflop? Why?)

Flop - Pot $6.50:


BB Checks.
What is your action?

I bet out $4, about 2/3rds of the pot, again a pretty standard amount for me.

BB then minraises to $8, which is pretty standard raise for him.

What now?

[Longy]

I like preflop and the cbet, got to bet this flop with overs and the flush draw.

Hmm goddamn i hate min raises given your description of him he has something here. Most of the time its a pair of sorts 22-99 (might even be 1010 or jj given he is passive preflop) but also these min raises can be very strong hand trips or flopped full house. I make habit of noting what these min raises mean from my opponents as it is often a massive tell to the strength of their holdings.

As for how to proceed I think I peel off a card here and re assess the turn in position. Against some opponents i would actually repop repping a big overpair looking for fold equity, but I like to have a stronger read for that.

[AlexMartin]

We can narrow his range down pretty well here. Longy is right and he most likely has a pp from 22-1010. Player dependant i would be very happy fully repping aa/kk/qq here and putting in the third raise but its pretty risky without knowing ur oppo. If oppo was slightly looser and had shown weak holding i dont mind 3-betting flop.

Sadly, I like a flat call here, its boring and uncreative but i think its best.

[M3boy]

BB is a loose player and passive on the flop, and let you hit runner runner to beat his 2 pair - from this description he has 5x or something similar is a strong possibility.

The cb is fine

Flat call the raise and re assess on the turn

[LuckyLloyd]

Invest in Pokertracker and PA Hud.

[snoopy1239]

Pre-flop fine, you don't want to call all-in from shortstack with king high, so standard raise is okay. If he's loose passive, then I'm happy to check the flop and see a free card. Don't see much wrong with betting either though. As long as you mix it up. I'd call, good chance he will pay you off if you hit flush, and you have position so can bet if he makes a weak check. This isn't a hand that I'd get particularly excited about though.

[doubleup]

Pre-flop you forgot to turn your head to the left and vomit in the short-stack's lap, but apart from that 100% standard.

Hmmm the flop - I would take his miniraise to be pot-building a monster or having a bit of a probe with an overpair.  I'm a bit worried about negative implied odds if I hit and he has the monster because the stacks are quite deep, so I'm reraising to about 20 and folding if he plays back. 

[KingPoker]

Wouldnt give him too much credit here for a PP. Either got lucky with the 5, is trying to outplay you with the "great min raise"- ffs, or had something really bad like 67 and is betting a gutshot.

The call is obligatory on the flop, cant re-raise IMO and take it from there but even if the spade or K/Q comes, im weary.

[Bongo]

Hmmm the flop - I would take his miniraise to be pot-building a monster or having a bit of a probe with an overpair.  I'm a bit worried about negative implied odds if I hit and he has the monster because the stacks are quite deep, so I'm reraising to about 20 and folding if he plays back. 

What would you do if he just called the bet?

I imagine it's a case of checking behind or folding on the turn if you miss, but what line do you then take if you hit a spade?

[doubleup]

Hmmm the flop - I would take his miniraise to be pot-building a monster or having a bit of a probe with an overpair.  I'm a bit worried about negative implied odds if I hit and he has the monster because the stacks are quite deep, so I'm reraising to about 20 and folding if he plays back. 

What would you do if he just called the bet?

I imagine it's a case of checking behind or folding on the turn if you miss, but what line do you then take if you hit a spade?

If I hit a spade on the turn, I will check as betting will almost def lead to stacking off if I get raised, because I won't be sure that he hasn't got a bare 5 or smaller flush.  I call a river bet or v-bet if checked to.  If I hit a K or Q, it depends on his bet size on the river.   

There's not much difference in eventual pot size in comparison with the "calling" line, although this depends on the size of his turn bet.  I think I win on the flop at least some of the time and narrow his range quite a bit if he calls. i.e. he has a 5 quite a lot I think - so I'd be wary if I hit the nut flush or by a  4 6 or 7.  He could also have A2ss/A4ss.

   

[AlexMartin]

Hmmm the flop - I would take his miniraise to be pot-building a monster or having a bit of a probe with an overpair.  I'm a bit worried about negative implied odds if I hit and he has the monster because the stacks are quite deep, so I'm reraising to about 20 and folding if he plays back. 

What would you do if he just called the bet?

I imagine it's a case of checking behind or folding on the turn if you miss, but what line do you then take if you hit a spade?

If I hit a spade on the turn, I will check as betting will almost def lead to stacking off if I get raised, because I won't be sure that he hasn't got a bare 5 or smaller flush.  I call a river bet or v-bet if checked to.  If I hit a K or Q, it depends on his bet size on the river.    

There's not much difference in eventual pot size in comparison with the "calling" line, although this depends on the size of his turn bet.  I think I win on the flop at least some of the time and narrow his range quite a bit if he calls. i.e. he has a 5 quite a lot I think - so I'd be wary if I hit the nut flush or by a  4 6 or 7.  He could also have A2ss/A4ss.

   

Interesting line this. So you will give villain free card on turn if you hit flush after re-popping to 20 on flop?

[doubleup]

Alex[/url] Martin link=topic=28910.msg591785#msg591785 date=1195129885]

Hmmm the flop - I would take his miniraise to be pot-building a monster or having a bit of a probe with an overpair.  I'm a bit worried about negative implied odds if I hit and he has the monster because the stacks are quite deep, so I'm reraising to about 20 and folding if he plays back. 

What would you do if he just called the bet?

I imagine it's a case of checking behind or folding on the turn if you miss, but what line do you then take if you hit a spade?

If I hit a spade on the turn, I will check as betting will almost def lead to stacking off if I get raised, because I won't be sure that he hasn't got a bare 5 or smaller flush.  I call a river bet or v-bet if checked to.  If I hit a K or Q, it depends on his bet size on the river.    

There's not much difference in eventual pot size in comparison with the "calling" line, although this depends on the size of his turn bet.  I think I win on the flop at least some of the time and narrow his range quite a bit if he calls. i.e. he has a 5 quite a lot I think - so I'd be wary if I hit the nut flush or by a  4 6 or 7.  He could also have A2ss/A4ss.

   

Interesting line this. So you will give villain free card on turn if you hit flush after re-popping to 20 on flop?

It isn't a free card if I'm already beaten



ps I know the line might be bollocks, but I think it's worth discussing when everyone else has gone into call mode.

[Bongo]

I think it's quite interesting, I think the check behind with the flush on the turn has 2 benefits, in that it keeps the pot small if you're behind, and could encourage a worse hand to bet into you on the river. They might also be more inclined to call a value bet you make on the river, thinking you would have bet the flush.

The downside being you are giving a free card to a 5 or the bare ace of spades, and they could outdraw you.

[doubleup]

I think it's quite interesting, I think the check behind with the flush on the turn has 2 benefits, in that it keeps the pot small if you're behind, and could encourage a worse hand to bet into you on the river. They might also be more inclined to call a value bet you make on the river, thinking you would have bet the flush.

The downside being you are giving a free card to a 5 or the bare ace of spades, and they could outdraw you.

I suppose this is the crucial question- is the ev gained from a worst hand betting or calling (nb that would not have called anyway) greater than the ev lost from giving a free card and is the ev lost from not stacking a worst hand that would've called less than the ev lost by being stacked by a better hand.   

[AlexMartin]

Alex[/url] Martin link=topic=28910.msg591785#msg591785 date=1195129885]

Hmmm the flop - I would take his miniraise to be pot-building a monster or having a bit of a probe with an overpair.  I'm a bit worried about negative implied odds if I hit and he has the monster because the stacks are quite deep, so I'm reraising to about 20 and folding if he plays back. 

What would you do if he just called the bet?

I imagine it's a case of checking behind or folding on the turn if you miss, but what line do you then take if you hit a spade?

If I hit a spade on the turn, I will check as betting will almost def lead to stacking off if I get raised, because I won't be sure that he hasn't got a bare 5 or smaller flush.  I call a river bet or v-bet if checked to.  If I hit a K or Q, it depends on his bet size on the river.    

There's not much difference in eventual pot size in comparison with the "calling" line, although this depends on the size of his turn bet.  I think I win on the flop at least some of the time and narrow his range quite a bit if he calls. i.e. he has a 5 quite a lot I think - so I'd be wary if I hit the nut flush or by a  4 6 or 7.  He could also have A2ss/A4ss.

   

Interesting line this. So you will give villain free card on turn if you hit flush after re-popping to 20 on flop?

It isn't a free card if I'm already beaten



ps I know the line might be bollocks, but I think it's worth discussing when everyone else has gone into call mode.

Most definitely not, i just wanted further discussion. I think this is a cracking level up on average/good thinking opponents and shows a better return if you think about the various hands competing and how the turn effects events.