200NL FR. Is my turn C/R +EV?

[Smart Money]

Villain is unknown, but doesn't seem to see many flops. (No other stats on him.)

He c/r me all in on the turn a few hands before this when I had raised pre, so I was looking to return the favour.

Is my turn c/r +EV, or is there a better play?

Other comments welcome too! E.g. Do you prefer a CB here?


Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $197.50
SB: $218.45
BB: $142.60
UTG: $188.10
Hero (UTG+1): $370.25
MP1: $200
MP2: $379.20
CO: $43.20

Pre-Flop:  dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $8, 3 folds, BTN calls $8, 2 folds

Flop: ($19) (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $18, Hero calls $18

Turn: ($55) (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $40, Hero raises to $344.25 and is All-In

($131.50 for BTN to call.)

[Longy]

Hmmm this is a bit fps for full ring (joke).

I would lead the flop all the time personally but I do play quite straightforward especially against unknowns. I like the turn play once you have taken this line on the flop.

Is it +ev, I would have thought so, Im damn sure it is at 6max but ranges in full ring are tighter and how many unknowns fire two barrells without the goods in FR.

[byronkincaid]

A few people have done this check/check/raise to me recently, I took it to be a very strong hand.

I don't really get it tho, what hands call that you are beating? If he's bluffing he may bluff the river if you just call his turn bet. I'm not sure that any better hands fold. 

As played I'm check/calling all the way and hoping he bluffs river.

[LuckyLloyd]

I think your line turns your hand into a bluff. I'm not sure why you would want to do this. He know folds most everything you beat. And, at 6-max anyway, he never folds much (if anything) that beats you.

I'd just bet the flop and take it from there.

[AlexMartin]

Maybe im being nuts here but this pot is purely being played on the flush draw facit of the board. You let him semi-bluff the flop and turn with a probable flush draw then stick it up him on the turn when he might fold. You let him think you might have an AK/AQ by not cbetting and let him try and take off then burn his wings on the turn. I like it and do it a fair bit.

[Smart Money]

I think your line turns your hand into a bluff. I'm not sure why you would want to do this. He know folds most everything you beat. And, at 6-max anyway, he never folds much (if anything) that beats you.

I'd just bet the flop and take it from there.

There are several hands that I beat (currently) that I want him to either fold or pay over the odds to see the river with.

[LuckyLloyd]

I think your line turns your hand into a bluff. I'm not sure why you would want to do this. He know folds most everything you beat. And, at 6-max anyway, he never folds much (if anything) that beats you.

I'd just bet the flop and take it from there.

There are several hands that I beat (currently) that I want him to either fold or pay over the odds to see the river with.

But their also a few hands that beat you which you have just spewed off to.

What's wrong with just leading the flop and betting the turn? You can still overcharge him, but it's a line that does much better against his entire range.

[Smart Money]

I think your line turns your hand into a bluff. I'm not sure why you would want to do this. He know folds most everything you beat. And, at 6-max anyway, he never folds much (if anything) that beats you.

I'd just bet the flop and take it from there.

There are several hands that I beat (currently) that I want him to either fold or pay over the odds to see the river with.

But their also a few hands that beat you which you have just spewed off to.

What's wrong with just leading the flop and betting the turn? You can still overcharge him, but it's a line that does much better against his entire range.

Yes, but even against a set or higher pair (no club) I have 11 and 12 outs respectively. The only hands I'm drawing dead/thin to is a made higher flush or higher pair with a club- both of which are fairly unlikely.

Nothing wrong with leading the flop/betting turn however by checking I can potentially induce a street of two of bluffs/semi-bluffs, and it also increases my chances of taking an extra bet or two from a lower pair who typically wouldn't want to call a flop bet fearing two more streets of bets to call. Of course it also increases the villain's chance of catching up (if he's behind) but I'm happy to take that risk.

[Smart Money]

Here's the HH in full, together with comments from the table!


Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BTN: $197.50
SB: $218.45
BB: $142.60
UTG: $188.10
Hero (UTG+1): $370.25
MP1: $200
MP2: $379.20
CO: $43.20

Pre-Flop: dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
UTG folds, Hero raises to $8, 3 folds, BTN calls $8, 2 folds

Flop: ($19) (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $18, Hero calls $18

Turn: ($55) (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $40, Hero raises to $344.25 and is All-In, BTN calls $131.50 and is All-In

River: ($398) (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $398 Pot ($3 Rake)
BTN showed (three of a kind, Threes) and LOST (-$197.50 NET)
Hero showed (a flush, Jack high) and WON $395 (+$197.50 NET)

BTN: lol
BTN: all in?
SB: ugly
MP2: ouch
MP2: ouch

[LuckyLloyd]

Well played.   

[Moskvich]

There are several hands that I beat (currently) that I want him to either fold or pay over the odds to see the river with.

Yes, but even against a set or higher pair (no club) I have 11 and 12 outs respectively. The only hands I'm drawing dead/thin to is a made higher flush or higher pair with a club- both of which are fairly unlikely.

Seems to me the problem with this is that most of the hands that you currently beat aren't making a big mistake if they call you here. He only needs about 32% equity to call and much of his range that is behind is pair + high flushdraw card, or two overcards with a flushdraw, which gives him only a couple of points short of that. In that situation I don't see you having much fold equity. If you're behind, on the other hand, then you're making a bigger mistake.

I think I'm with the 'why turn your hand into a bluff' camp.

Not a very pretty spot though obviously, not sure what's best. I might check-call flop and lead the probably blank turn..?

[TightEnd]

turning it round Mr Smart, sir

with a set of in his spot are you folding to the all-in on the turn?

just wondered!

[Smart Money]

There are several hands that I beat (currently) that I want him to either fold or pay over the odds to see the river with.

Yes, but even against a set or higher pair (no club) I have 11 and 12 outs respectively. The only hands I'm drawing dead/thin to is a made higher flush or higher pair with a club- both of which are fairly unlikely.

Seems to me the problem with this is that most of the hands that you currently beat aren't making a big mistake if they call you here. He only needs about 32% equity to call and much of his range that is behind is pair + high flushdraw card, or two overcards with a flushdraw, which gives him only a couple of points short of that. In that situation I don't see you having much fold equity.

Yes, but that assumes he knows that his draw is live if he had a hand such as AxKc.

Also, it may not be that much of a mistake to call with, say, AcTx or AcKx at this point however committing $171.50 in total on the turn with just $55 initally in the pot isn't ideal for him. I.e. "Mistakes"* earlier in the hand reduce the severity of mistakes later on.

(*semi-bluffing here isn't necessarily a mistake for the villain- but he'd rather take a free card than end up being c/r all-in)

Anyway, thanks for the comments.

[Smart Money]

turning it round Mr Smart, sir

with a set of in his spot are you folding to the all-in on the turn?

just wondered!

I'd be calling of course.

[Smart Money]

Well played.   

Thanks. I respect your FR advice.