What did i do, what should i do?

[b4matt]

2006 Amsterdam Master classics - Main event- 5K Euro buy in- Blinds 25/50

3rd hand of the comp, i'm dealt kings in ep, i raise to 175.

2 seats down calls.

Cut off  re-raises to 500 to play.

I re pop to 1500 to play.

2 seats down calls.

C.O. re-pops to 5k.


Question-

What do you do?

What do you do differently?

What is the correct play?

[Bongo]

This feels like such a sick hand, what can the caller have to cold call the extra 1325 with the prospect of another raise behind?

[Dewi_cool]

all in

[Dewi_cool]

he had AK

[Royal Flush]

What do you do?


I pass.


What do you do differently?


Flat call the 500


What is the correct play?


No idea

[LuckyLloyd]

What are the effective stacks at the start of the hand? It's very important info.

Like Flushy says, it's a pretty weird spot where there is like zero value in the raise to 1500. Just because it narrows your range down to exactly AA or KK and allows your opponents to play perfectly against you. If you guys start with 15k+ in chips then they can set mine you with any pocket pair and make no mistakes post flop. And AA can re raise to 5k and expect to get it in a lot.

Now, I'm not saying that he MUST have AA here. However, the deeper the stacks the worse he has to be to have anything other than AA, because any other hand he has at this point is now a massive bluff. And yeah, he can expect that you fold everything other than AA. But it's half your range after you make it 1500!!

If we have 10k stacks to start I'm going to go broke. If we have 15k - 20k stacks I fold. If starting stacks were 30k+ I call to flop a King. Fuck him.

[b4matt]

Stacks where 10k, and all 3 of us where playing our 1st hand...

[LuckyLloyd]

Stacks where 10k, and all 3 of us where playing our 1st hand...

Oh sigh. Like I said, I probably go broke here.

[b4matt]

Looking back, i wish i'd just called the 500. I made the mistake of re-popping again, just to confirm my fears that he did have AA,
I pretty much new anyway, i could have just called and tried to spike.

I passed, the other caller also passed. I had held onto my cards after i passed and flicked over my KK trying to get the other geezer to show.

Kindly he obliged and showed AA. The other player said he had QQ.

Its the only time i've passed KK pre flop- and probably the only level of a tournament that i could pass kk, especially as people value AK so highly.

I went on to finish 29th.... 27 paid...sigh

[boldie]

OK..I am not a big fessie/high buy-in player (haven't played  more than 5 tourneys over 400£ buy-in) and am therefore somewhat curious as to why the re-pop to 1500 is a bad idea? As someone said it narrows the oppo's range down to exactly AA-KK and that's pretty much what you're hoping for, no?

If you don't re-pop here and just flatcall the 500..how do you play a low flop?..Say the flop comes Q high..do you then; Lead out? check-raise? Say (even worse) the flop comes very low...7 high. is there any time where all your chips don't go flying in? after all oppo could have repopped you with QQ.

this way it's cost you 1500 but you can (fairly) safely give up the hand in the knowledge that you laid down the worst hand and have 8500 back..how much would it cost you on the flop to do the same?

Like I said, genuinely curious as to why this is and would love to hear from people that play these things regularly.

[Royal Flush]

OK..I am not a big fessie/high buy-in player (haven't played  more than 5 tourneys over 400£ buy-in) and am therefore somewhat curious as to why the re-pop to 1500 is a bad idea? As someone said it narrows the oppo's range down to exactly AA-KK and that's pretty much what you're hoping for, no?

No it narrows your range to AA-KK, not your oppo's

I flat and look to check call the flop, this should scare the oppo if he has AA or QQ, thus limiting the pot but getting me to showdown.

I am not interested in losing 1500 chips, i want to try and win chips.

[bhoywonder]

yeah boldie

u raise for info

u get that info..ur gut tells you to fold and u do

great disciplined pass......not many can do that

[boldie]

OK..I am not a big fessie/high buy-in player (haven't played  more than 5 tourneys over 400£ buy-in) and am therefore somewhat curious as to why the re-pop to 1500 is a bad idea? As someone said it narrows the oppo's range down to exactly AA-KK and that's pretty much what you're hoping for, no?

No it narrows your range to AA-KK, not your oppo's

ah I read it wrong then..Thanks mate.

[LuckyLloyd]

OK..I am not a big fessie/high buy-in player (haven't played  more than 5 tourneys over 400£ buy-in) and am therefore somewhat curious as to why the re-pop to 1500 is a bad idea? As someone said it narrows the oppo's range down to exactly AA-KK and that's pretty much what you're hoping for, no?

If you don't re-pop here and just flatcall the 500..how do you play a low flop?..Say the flop comes Q high..do you then; Lead out? check-raise? Say (even worse) the flop comes very low...7 high. is there any time where all your chips don't go flying in? after all oppo could have repopped you with QQ.

this way it's cost you 1500 but you can (fairly) safely give up the hand in the knowledge that you laid down the worst hand and have 8500 back..how much would it cost you on the flop to do the same?

Like I said, genuinely curious as to why this is and would love to hear from people that play these things regularly.

That's the wrong way to look at it. As I said earlier, when you make it 1500 it narrows YOUR range. And as Flushy says, we want to WIN the most amount of chips possible.

When you make it 1500 the hand becomes so much easier to play. You have told the table what you have, and you assume they act accordingly. As such, if they are competent you can fold and feel good about it when they 5 bet. And they'll fold every hand you beat preflop so you don't risk getting dogged or outplayed and win a small pot risk free.

Needless to say, when you try and make hands easier to play you drastically reduce your EV. We want to flatcall the 500 because his range for making it 500 is probably going to be JJ+ // AKo+. He may also repop with stuff like AQ and 1010 (he probably shouldn't - but what people should do and do do are very different things). When you raise, he only continues with AA most of the time. Sometimes he would be willing to get it in with QQ or AK but it is very unlikely and quite uncommon.

We WANT to play a flop against JJ or QQ or AK or 1010 or AQ. We don't want to make a play that gives them the best chance to fold preflop. Plus, we have position on the 3 bettor. So if the flop comes low we just play poker with position on the player who has shown the most strength. There will be 1500 in the pot and 9.5k behind - so we can do a lot of different things after the flop and we don't have to go broke.

Bear in mind that 5k buyin tournaments are filled with really crap players. Even many regular circuit professionals are technically awful poker players that have massively exploitable leaks. As such, we shouldn't be averse to taking a flop here.

Remember:

- Raise if better hands will fold;
- Raise if worse hands will call;

When you make it 1500, it is highly unlikely that either of the above happen (particularly the first one!!). Raising for information is always bad. But it's particularly bad in this spot. By this I mean raising to 1500 to see if he has AA would just be god awful.

[LuckyLloyd]

Looking back, i wish i'd just called the 500. I made the mistake of re-popping again, just to confirm my fears that he did have AA,
I pretty much new anyway, i could have just called and tried to spike.

I passed, the other caller also passed. I had held onto my cards after i passed and flicked over my KK trying to get the other geezer to show.

Kindly he obliged and showed AA. The other player said he had QQ.

Its the only time i've passed KK pre flop- and probably the only level of a tournament that i could pass kk, especially as people value AK so highly.

I went on to finish 29th.... 27 paid...sigh

Matt, hard luck on bubbling and well done on the final decision to fold. However, you should never show here. The times he doesn't show or the times he shows QQ will tilt you to such an extent that you can't continue properly. You are also giving the wrong type of image to the table.