Constructive criticism required

[boldie]

The maths of tournament poker says that for most people success is unlikely. In a generous pay structure, 10% of the tournament field will make the money. That means that 90% of the players, no matter how well they played, are still losers.

So as such Flushy, you are challenging the maths of tournament poker....well done son sir!

Wow Mantis, you're really lost me here.

For most people any success in poker in unlikely..most people LOSE money when playing poker..it's what the cash game pro's count on. If you are a winning online player you are thought to be in the top 5% of players online..whether that be cash or tournament.

there is more variance in MTT's..no doubt..but money is there to be made and how you can think there isn't is simply beyond me.

[booder]

from Booders book of  poker rules
 no 73......if you hold the     shovel them in preflop,you never lose.

[MANTIS01]

There is money to be made boldie, but statistically you wont make it playing tournament poker. Thats the stats.

so you can't say....

For most people any success in poker in unlikely

most people LOSE money when playing poker

If you are a winning online player you are thought to be in the top 5% of players

And then say I loose you by saying most people don't make money. You support my statement and then say my statement is beyond you?? Now I'm lost.

The point I make is that everyone screams blue murder when I choose to ignore the maths on a particular hand...but by playing tournament poker at all we are all flying in the face of the maths. This is the irony for me.

[boldie]

wow...So you're saying that by playing cash poker we are also ignoring statistics and the maths?

[phatom_lord]

There are many different ways to play a hand out, we see that on the PHA Board all the time.

of course, no doubt about that, all loads of people posting silly stuff on this forum just shows that, but usually there's a correct way to play a hand, like here for example, raise pf, bet the flop, and try and get all in agaisnt the moron.

If you have a tangible thought process that is at the heart of your strategy then this cannot be argued with.

uh, it can, if it's a flawed thought process, I'll see if i can drag up an example...oooh here's one!

The merits of checking pre-flop, not risking chips that you don't have to risk, and trying to win a big pot by trapping mean this strategy is open for some consideration. I have used both strategies to good effect and both have their advantages. To say that not raising is wrong can be statistically proven for sure but we are talking about a tournament rescue package. And it is this complete package that is the priority, not making one statistically correct play.

In tournaments you will have the need and opportunity to get creative at times. Creativity will be stifled if you use +EV plays in isolation of complete strategies, particularly when we're talking about rescue strategies.

lol

2. Tournament players cannot expect to make long-term profit

Well good players can, maninly due to generous folks like you contributing to the prizepool.

[MANTIS01]

In cash the variables are much different so you can become a profitable player in spite of the odds that suggest otherwise. Factors like you can quit when ahead and recover from being busted make this a more achievable goal.

Impressive first post phatom_lord. Your raise pf, bet the flop, and move all-in theory is based on seeing the queen yes? Do you still bet the flop if you miss? Because statistically most of the time you will.

[AlexMartin]

Lets all kill Mantis, KILL KILL KILL. LOL @ jumping on a guy. He made a stupid remark and we want to crucify him. Grow up please.

[LuckyLloyd]

Well, NOW I'm going to go for the kill.

MANTIS:

What is your full name?
I assume MANTIS01 is your online screename on Pokerstars and Party Poker, yes?
Assuming I am correct in that assumption - then you don't seem to be very good at online tournaments.
Have you had many live cashes?
Are you a profitable live tournament player?

I'm sick of reading your lengthy, technically incorrect and horrendously flawed posts that are delivered with an air of confidence that is rather baffling. I'm a profitable tournament player. Flushy is a much more profitable tournament player than I am. The basic points I have been arguing on this forum the past while are fundamental tenants regarding optimal tournament strategy that have been conceived and fine tuned elsewhere by astoundingly profitable tournament players.

If you lose at tournament poker and play them recreationally then that is fine. But if that IS the case then maybe you should stop and think about whether this gibberish you keep spouting out really is as wise as you believe it to be. Saying that it is impossible to be a long - term winner in tournament poker is ridiculous. Saying that tournament poker is not essentially about maths and EV is ridiculous. Your advice could prove to be costly for anyone that would take it seriously.

You are arguing the losing side of debates that have been held years ago. And I'm tired of it. So I'm calling you out. What are your results? Because you sound like a losing tournament player. And if I'm wrong on that point and you are infact a huge winner at MTTs then I'll counter every single paragraph of every single one of your posts and I can win the very same arguments that have been held on other hand analysis boards long before.

But if you are breakeven; or losing; or a slight winner then that is it. It would be time for you really to just accept that you are WRONG. And this is a matter of right and wrong btw.

Your turn.

[celtic]

Luckylloyd is upset.

[LuckyLloyd]

Luckylloyd is upset.

Good read.

By the way, my full name is Lloyd O' Farrell. In the interests of fairness.

[jezza777]

Are you really lucky though?

[TightEnd]

Please everyone, no point anyone getting upset, swearing or anyone name calling anyone else

Lets keep it cool, and make this board attractive for everyone to visit please

[celtic]

Luckylloyd is upset.

Good read.

By the way, my full name is Lloyd O' Farrell. In the interests of fairness.

Cheers Lloyd, 1st time someone said that to me.

[LuckyLloyd]

Please everyone, no point anyone getting upset, swearing or anyone name calling anyone else

Lets keep it cool, and make this board attractive for everyone to visit please

Swearing removed.

[TightEnd]

cheers, I enjoy reading passionate posts but as a neutral in some of these "locking horns debates" I'd rather no one fell out"