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Author Topic: Constructive criticism required  (Read 23953 times)
Royal Flush
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« Reply #105 on: December 21, 2007, 12:55:04 AM »

The maths of tournament poker says that for most people success is unlikely. In a generous pay structure, 10% of the tournament field will make the money. That means that 90% of the players, no matter how well they played, are still losers.

So as such Flushy, you are challenging the maths of tournament poker....well done son sir!

lolaments
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AlexMartin
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« Reply #106 on: December 21, 2007, 02:04:11 AM »

LOL@ the 2 new ppl that have never posted b4 coming on here to have a pop@ Mantis. LL get ur grandma to sign up too. Wink
This thread is LOL egoaments.
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JungleCat03
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« Reply #107 on: December 21, 2007, 02:31:37 AM »

When I first started playing, I used to post on a hand analysis board at a different site and I said something fundamentally moronic about a hand. (Basically I was a results orientated kipper) A player on the site ripped into my post and cut my argument to shreds in an unforgiving , vitriolic way. At first I was slightly offended, but I knew the guy was a very good player and gradually the points he made sunk in and impacted on me.

It left me a better player and I'm really glad to the guy for this (hectorjelly, or daragh thomas if any of you guys know him).

At the tables you'll get bullied and pushed about a LOT more than over an internet forum board. Most of what lloyd says is very reasoned argument and although you can practically see the steam coming out of his ears on some of his posts, if you look past the odd abusive comment you can see lots of very useful analysis that if you take it on board will make lots of players better.



To me Mantis is different. I respect his writing style, I think he writes in an educated, interesting way that many people enjoy reading and that is his gift. Unfortunately his poker analysis is a bit lacking and he is stubborn about conceding ground which causes these conflicts with the better players. I'm not the world's best mtt player (although I've managed to stay ahead of variance for the last 4 years, defying the maths lol) but some of the points you make Mantis get the steam coming out of my ears too!
 
Having said that, many people have pointed out that his comments stimulate interesting debate which is true and I'd be keen for Mantis to continue to contribute to the board, although if you write in a less authoritarian, definitive manner and take on board some of the points made by the winning mtt players, they'll be fewer off topic arguments and more stimulating debate, which is the way it should be...
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LuckyLloyd
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« Reply #108 on: December 21, 2007, 07:57:33 AM »

LOL@ the 2 new ppl that have never posted b4 coming on here to have a pop@ Mantis. LL get ur grandma to sign up too. Wink
This thread is LOL egoaments.

PL and Cooker are posters on the boards.ie poker forum. I didn't specifically ask anyone to come over here to defend me - I just posted a link to this thread IN THE BAD BEAT SECTION.
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« Reply #109 on: December 21, 2007, 07:59:13 AM »

When I first started playing, I used to post on a hand analysis board at a different site and I said something fundamentally moronic about a hand. (Basically I was a results orientated kipper) A player on the site ripped into my post and cut my argument to shreds in an unforgiving , vitriolic way. At first I was slightly offended, but I knew the guy was a very good player and gradually the points he made sunk in and impacted on me.

It left me a better player and I'm really glad to the guy for this (hectorjelly, or daragh thomas if any of you guys know him).

Darragh has torn me a new one on boards many a time and it has been one of the key factors in the improvement of my game.
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« Reply #110 on: December 21, 2007, 11:52:45 AM »

LOL@ the 2 new ppl that have never posted b4 coming on here to have a pop@ Mantis. LL get ur grandma to sign up too. Wink
This thread is LOL egoaments.

Wrong, I have posted before and have been a member here for a month.
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« Reply #111 on: December 22, 2007, 12:32:53 AM »

a lesson in manners hector forgot
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« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2007, 05:50:11 PM »

Bugger me!


How many stalkers do you need to be officially classed as famous?


A variety of strategies on display to try and make me feel bad. I've gotta say my personal favourite is "Attack of the Hateful Newbies"...lol. Some of you guys need to just relax a bit. Please realise that time spent on Mantis flaming is time wasted...nobody can make me feel bad.

So let's kick off with a quote from Phil Helmuth after he made a -EV play....

"Your criticism of me represents the way the world thinks. I represent the way I think."

Really love that.

There is a lot of irony in 10 people sitting around a poker table and the 9 like-minded players all agreeing that they have the edge over the 1 person that thinks differently. Not as much irony though as hearing LuckyLloyd chastise players on the forum for being results orientated only for him to demand to see results....that has to be a lol moment for sure.

Even if I was the worst player in the world I could still justify my confidence on the subject of poker by asking how many major golf championships David Leadbetter has won??...........So why is his opinion valued and respected??

When I talk about poker I only offer comment on tournaments. Cash games don't interest me for lots of reasons...I don't have any experience to offer a useful opinion...so I don't offer one. Tournaments are a different matter though...I have played thousands of them over the last four years so my opinions are based on a lot of experience. Forgive me for not wilting to the opinions of those with far less tournament experience than me...but I do take valid comment on board.



I notice that some of my best poker is played when it is instinctive. T.J. Cloutier said that your gut feeling is often correct and I tend to agree with this. I want to explore the instinctive aspects of poker theory and this is both difficult to quantify and often conflicts with the maths. When you are faced with a difficult decision you are often pulled between your instincts and your rational thought, heart or mind stuff, and I want to understand the instinctive side of the game.

Players who are left-brain orientated gravitate towards perfecting the science route...and usually have most success in the cash format where these skills are a fundamental requirement. This is a perfectly valid way to play the game. It doesn't much appeal to me though...I mean you can give a robot that acquired skill and it will be a fair cash game player. While maths is an aspect of poker, for me it is fundamentally a game about people, how they think, how they act and why they do the things they do. Developing a deep understanding of an individual person and appreciating the way they think is a skill a robot cannot learn...and once you develop this skill it is a very powerful weapon in tournament poker. Again, some of my best poker is played when I forget what cards I have. I am just focussed on the person and what they are thinking....I mean, one of the first things we learn is to play the person not the cards.

My skill-set is such that I prefer the live game where real people and all their individual habits are on display. So while it may be true that if you bet x% of the pot you will make y profit in the long run...I tune into what the right bet is for THAT individual on that particular day based on everything I have seen and how that person feels. Of course, if you play a lot of on-line cash you loose the whole human element of the game and so it is little wonder you place a lot of focus on the numbers. I play people and I play tournaments and I have won lots of tournaments...so I am justifiably comfortable with my ability in this format.

So I come to Blonde to see if I can bounce a few instinctive thoughts off passionate poker players and develop a deeper understanding of different types of players and the way they think. But often the responses I get will be about the amount of words I use or that my writing style is offensive. Who cares about that stuff and why?? This is poker hand analysis not a sewing circle for middle-aged women. Please don't allow me to offend you. I am here to talk poker not score Brownie points by saying the "right" thing.

One thing I notice a lot with poker players and people in general is this craving of status. How much does being the "best" in the eyes of somebody else win you?? So why care?? Let's all join hands and skip around the playground chanting Lloyd is best or Flushy is best....what fun.

These players say "How could you call with that?" and make it a statement not a question because they only know that the "fish" doesn't think like them and is therefore "wrong". That question is actually a very important one...and the answer even more so. People with closed minds do not develop an understanding of individuality and so find it difficult to cope with. Knowing what makes people tick is a very powerful weapon in poker. In this thread I specifically used the word "son" to see if I could trigger a reaction from LuckyLloyd....and in his very next post....bingo.

Quote
Don't refer to me as "son" thank you very much

Knowing how to push people's buttons and knowing what will get them to react is what poker is all about for me. I play people more than I play the cards. Meanwhile, Lloyd goes to a lot more effort to flame me and I really couldn't care less....so a far less effective strategy. You cannot develop an understanding of people if you have a closed mind. So the people who have said in this thread that checking with the A-Q is "wrong" are being so narrow-minded. There are lots of positives in doing this. I have experimented with this loads of times and got the tournament changing result I was looking for. Mixing up your play, changing things around and doing things a bit different are all essential for tournament success...but some just say it's "wrong". How on earth do you combat an opponent playing this way if you don't even entertain the notion of it?? Wake up guys...loads of people will check here...just like Tightend did. It may not be your preferred play but if you are not even prepared to discuss the different options you will never progress. But that's your business.

New members are prevented from commenting because of this childish behaviour and that is a real shame...because they may have something interesting to say. Even better, they may have something different to say, and if they do I want to hear it. Whether I agree or not is irrelevant...I want to understand it anyway. This understanding allows me to make the "magical" plays that will forever be just gibberish to some.

My thoughts do indeed spark debate and this is, errr, a debating board....so this is a good thing yes? And the best way to show others that a point in not valid is to debate it, not squeal that it's wrong.

So let's talk poker in the New Year because I share your passion for the game if nothing else.

Happy X-mas
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Royal Flush
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« Reply #113 on: December 22, 2007, 06:34:46 PM »

Bugger me!


How many stalkers do you need to be officially classed as famous?


A variety of strategies on display to try and make me feel bad. I've gotta say my personal favourite is "Attack of the Hateful Newbies"...lol. Some of you guys need to just relax a bit. Please realise that time spent on Mantis flaming is time wasted...nobody can make me feel bad.

So let's kick off with a quote from Phil Helmuth after he made a -EV play....

"Your criticism of me represents the way the world thinks. I represent the way I think."

Really love that.

There is a lot of irony in 10 people sitting around a poker table and the 9 like-minded players all agreeing that they have the edge over the 1 person that thinks differently. Not as much irony though as hearing LuckyLloyd chastise players on the forum for being results orientated only for him to demand to see results....that has to be a lol moment for sure.

Even if I was the worst player in the world I could still justify my confidence on the subject of poker by asking how many major golf championships David Leadbetter has won??...........So why is his opinion valued and respected??

When I talk about poker I only offer comment on tournaments. Cash games don't interest me for lots of reasons...I don't have any experience to offer a useful opinion...so I don't offer one. Tournaments are a different matter though...I have played thousands of them over the last four years so my opinions are based on a lot of experience. Forgive me for not wilting to the opinions of those with far less tournament experience than me...but I do take valid comment on board.



I notice that some of my best poker is played when it is instinctive. T.J. Cloutier said that your gut feeling is often correct and I tend to agree with this. I want to explore the instinctive aspects of poker theory and this is both difficult to quantify and often conflicts with the maths. When you are faced with a difficult decision you are often pulled between your instincts and your rational thought, heart or mind stuff, and I want to understand the instinctive side of the game.

Players who are left-brain orientated gravitate towards perfecting the science route...and usually have most success in the cash format where these skills are a fundamental requirement. This is a perfectly valid way to play the game. It doesn't much appeal to me though...I mean you can give a robot that acquired skill and it will be a fair cash game player. While maths is an aspect of poker, for me it is fundamentally a game about people, how they think, how they act and why they do the things they do. Developing a deep understanding of an individual person and appreciating the way they think is a skill a robot cannot learn...and once you develop this skill it is a very powerful weapon in tournament poker. Again, some of my best poker is played when I forget what cards I have. I am just focussed on the person and what they are thinking....I mean, one of the first things we learn is to play the person not the cards.

My skill-set is such that I prefer the live game where real people and all their individual habits are on display. So while it may be true that if you bet x% of the pot you will make y profit in the long run...I tune into what the right bet is for THAT individual on that particular day based on everything I have seen and how that person feels. Of course, if you play a lot of on-line cash you loose the whole human element of the game and so it is little wonder you place a lot of focus on the numbers. I play people and I play tournaments and I have won lots of tournaments...so I am justifiably comfortable with my ability in this format.

So I come to Blonde to see if I can bounce a few instinctive thoughts off passionate poker players and develop a deeper understanding of different types of players and the way they think. But often the responses I get will be about the amount of words I use or that my writing style is offensive. Who cares about that stuff and why?? This is poker hand analysis not a sewing circle for middle-aged women. Please don't allow me to offend you. I am here to talk poker not score Brownie points by saying the "right" thing.

One thing I notice a lot with poker players and people in general is this craving of status. How much does being the "best" in the eyes of somebody else win you?? So why care?? Let's all join hands and skip around the playground chanting Lloyd is best or Flushy is best....what fun.

These players say "How could you call with that?" and make it a statement not a question because they only know that the "fish" doesn't think like them and is therefore "wrong". That question is actually a very important one...and the answer even more so. People with closed minds do not develop an understanding of individuality and so find it difficult to cope with. Knowing what makes people tick is a very powerful weapon in poker. In this thread I specifically used the word "son" to see if I could trigger a reaction from LuckyLloyd....and in his very next post....bingo.

Quote
Don't refer to me as "son" thank you very much

Knowing how to push people's buttons and knowing what will get them to react is what poker is all about for me. I play people more than I play the cards. Meanwhile, Lloyd goes to a lot more effort to flame me and I really couldn't care less....so a far less effective strategy. You cannot develop an understanding of people if you have a closed mind. So the people who have said in this thread that checking with the A-Q is "wrong" are being so narrow-minded. There are lots of positives in doing this. I have experimented with this loads of times and got the tournament changing result I was looking for. Mixing up your play, changing things around and doing things a bit different are all essential for tournament success...but some just say it's "wrong". How on earth do you combat an opponent playing this way if you don't even entertain the notion of it?? Wake up guys...loads of people will check here...just like Tightend did. It may not be your preferred play but if you are not even prepared to discuss the different options you will never progress. But that's your business.

New members are prevented from commenting because of this childish behaviour and that is a real shame...because they may have something interesting to say. Even better, they may have something different to say, and if they do I want to hear it. Whether I agree or not is irrelevant...I want to understand it anyway. This understanding allows me to make the "magical" plays that will forever be just gibberish to some.

My thoughts do indeed spark debate and this is, errr, a debating board....so this is a good thing yes? And the best way to show others that a point in not valid is to debate it, not squeal that it's wrong.

So let's talk poker in the New Year because I share your passion for the game if nothing else.

Happy X-mas

So in short, you are a losing tournament player, but you have experience.
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MANTIS01
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« Reply #114 on: December 22, 2007, 07:06:49 PM »

The only thing you take away from the post Flushy is something that isn't written. Well done.
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« Reply #115 on: December 22, 2007, 07:21:36 PM »

The thing I love most about this thread is the ironic title.
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« Reply #116 on: December 22, 2007, 07:27:45 PM »

The thing I love most about this thread is the ironic title.

we;; the first few pages went fine Smiley
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LuckyLloyd
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« Reply #117 on: December 22, 2007, 08:14:23 PM »

The only thing you take away from the post Flushy is something that isn't written. Well done.

- You can continue to blah, blah that maths = cashgames and tournaments = people game all you like. And you can continue to say that they are like chalk and cheese all you like. But I say you are wrong and that good fundamental poker is the base for playing both; i.e. play each hand to maximise EV;
- You can say that this is a debating forum so you should have the right to turn up here and make whatever arguments you wish like this is a game for your amusement and entertainment. That hand analysis threads are little fun fests where the objective is to win an argument. But I say you are wrong and this is about money; therefore meaning that the real objective of these threads is simply to figure the most correct play that will yield the greatest long - term profit and help people to improve;
- You can say that you have "experience"of tournaments and that whether someone is a better player or holds a superior track record is irrelevant - therefore meaning that if you express an opinion it should be valid. Sounds good, but doesn't hold when your advice and opinions are flawed at the foundations and technically incorrect. I say poker is maths. I am telling you that maths is an area where this is right and wrong. If you want to argue with the maths then your results do become relevant again. Because if you are a losing player it would simply make sense and fit in with how awful your strat is;

YES, I do say that tournaments are about the long run. That variance is huge in tournament poker and therefore short - term results don't matter. So yeah, if you are a loser in tournaments it could be just that you run bad despite playing perfectly. But the probability would be that you have massive leaks as per your posts. I certainly think that would be the +EV assumption in any case.


SO:

Your name is?
Are you a profitable tournament player?


It may suit yourself to take pride in the fact that you think differently to everyone about poker tournaments. I take pride in the fact that I win money from playing poker tournaments. You may believe that as long as you can write a paragraph on a point it makes it a valid one. Well lol. But I guess poker is a game filled with people who practice self delusion at the end of every session; every week; every month; every year. I've met plenty of players in live cardrooms who will feel good about the fact that they won six nights last week despite the fact that they spunked back all the profit plus a heap of cash on the seventh night. They won't say they lost money if you ask them though - they'll say that they won six nights out of seven. Sounds good, eh? Also, they're usually the guys who talk about "feel"; and "reads"; and "knowing what he had"; and that "everyone plays their own way"; and that "it's all luck really".
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« Reply #118 on: December 22, 2007, 08:25:48 PM »

Daniel Negreanu article form eons ago:

"There is feeling poker, then there is winning poker"
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« Reply #119 on: December 22, 2007, 09:49:53 PM »


Lloyd

Your attitude is bad and you seem to be lacking in some quite basic life skills.  Mantis is entitled to put his opinions forward and you are entitled to yours.  What ppl take from his and your posts is up to them.  To take a bullying attitude and attempt to embarrass someone over their results is childish and in any case it is unlikely that you can be sure that most players are in fact losers or winners.  My results show a healthy profit, but take away 2 big final tables and I'm 5k down.  I've got a 5% ROI in sitngoes but I'm $6k down as a result of a drink fuelled escapade involving a $5k turbo sitngo and a couple of other high buyins. 

There is more to poker than maths, if there wasn't bots would already rule and they don't.  I play so much online that I lose touch with the non-maths aspects of live poker and if someone takes an (admittedly extreme) non-maths view it adds to the discussion even if it leads to dismissing the view.  When you have KK and that fcking Ace pops up on the flop is a hugely different situation live than online, so dicussion about "feel" when correctly explored is going to be helpful to me at least.
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