Mentoring- Interest Thread.

[byronkincaid]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-No-Limit-Hold-I-1/dp/188068540X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199215069&sr=8-1

sure you've mentioned it in a thread before

[kinboshi]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-No-Limit-Hold-I-1/dp/188068540X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199215069&sr=8-1

sure you've mentioned it in a thread before

I think I might have asked about it, wasn't sure if it was the same one.  Did intend buying it a while back - will order it now.

[Jim-D]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-No-Limit-Hold-I-1/dp/188068540X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199215069&sr=8-1

sure you've mentioned it in a thread before

I think I might have asked about it, wasn't sure if it was the same one.  Did intend buying it a while back - will order it now.

Make sure you use the blonde link! 

[kinboshi]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Professional-No-Limit-Hold-I-1/dp/188068540X/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199215069&sr=8-1

sure you've mentioned it in a thread before

I think I might have asked about it, wasn't sure if it was the same one.  Did intend buying it a while back - will order it now.

Make sure you use the blonde link! 

Obviously!

[madasahatstand]

So are you intersted in being a mentor or a student,Byron?

Surely nobody would turn down lessons from someone better than them, it's like being offered free money. I dunno about being a mentor yet, maybe.

you have eeked out a meagre living from rakeback for a good few years

FYP


Long time ago before 3-bet started and I think they were the first coaching site, I harrassed someone by PM to give me lessons, in the end he watched me play a comp and went through it with me the next day, all he requested was that if I ever have a big tourney score I bung him a small percentage of it. What a big score is and what percentage is up to me, I've never even met the guy, I could obv easily stiff him, effectively he gave me a free lesson with a small chance that one day he may get something back. One day hopefully I will take great pleasure in paying him his %. That's a pretty cool way to do it I think.

Is that not mentoring in a form? Taking time to watch you play a tourney and then make constructive criticism? That takes quite a bit of effort. Maybe if this guy did that with a lot of Blondes, he'd end up being rich:)  It actually sounds a lot like that bloke from ebay who was offering lessons. There are a lot of mentoring models and this is just an example of one of them. It doesnt sound like longy is being prescriptive about what model to use. Whatever works, works:)

[AlexMartin]

If ur gonna get this going you need a solid communication line. Id propose skype as its proven it works b4 and you can speak a lot faster than you can type.

[matt674]

i always found that if i was watching someone playing a tournament with the intention of running thru it with them later that it was best if they didnt know they were being watched - the mentor could actually see the pupil playing their own game and make notes about certain hand numbers then after the tournament get them to send the hand history over so then they could actually see the cards involved.

Its difficult for a pupil to play their "normal" game when they know they've got someone watching them as they try harder not to make mistakes and may do things differently to what they normally do because they ask themselves "would this be something my mentor would do" - which makes it more difficult for the mentor to establish if their are any leaks in the game to start with.

[doubleup]

Another point about skill levels and mentoring.  Primary teachers, secondary teachers and lecturers all play their role in education.  If someone wants to beat 100nl, then a confirmed winner at that level is perfectly capable of mentoring them and they surely realise that they are not being tought about 5000nl. 

[AlexMartin]

Another point about skill levels and mentoring.  Primary teachers, secondary teachers and lecturers all play their role in education.  If someone wants to beat 100nl, then a confirmed winner at that level is perfectly capable of mentoring them and they surely realise that they are not being tought about 5000nl. 

yeah i agree wiht this. Beating 25/50NL is pretty disgustingly overqualified for coaching 100nl. Oh, and there are probably <0.1% of players that can do it over a big sample.

[M3boy]

I still think the best way is to send a "complete" tournament history to a "mentor" for them to replay and comment on as necessary.

Longy and Flushy has done this for me in the past - it was very helpfull.

[madasahatstand]

Out of interest, has anyone hooked up yet?

[LuckyLloyd]

Whenever I read posts like the ones from ByronKincaid in this thread it makes me wish even more that we were starting 2005 as opposed to 2008 - and I was magically zoomed back in time while somehow retaining my current level of poker knowledge and experience.

The game has taken giant strides forward over the past three years and yes, by all accounts beating 3 / 6 today is harder than beating 10 / 20 (25 / 50 on some networks) was three years ago. And yes, since UIGEA there are less fish. Plus, given the recent German situation plus the uncertainty about when - if ever - regressive legislation will be repealed means that people can expect the games to become ever harder going forward. You couple a decreasing player base with an increase in useful coaching sites and you have a potent recipe for unprofitabillity.

BUT:

That is not to say that all but the exceptionally gifted are doomed to lose money playing poker. If you currently beat 25nl, the probabillity is that a winner at 1 / 2 over a decent sample size can help you take a few steps forward. The same follows for a winning 400nl player to a guy beating 100nl. Everything good that you take in; every leak you fix are steps in the right direction.

In my opinion the key is that you are open to the possibillity of learning and are willing to put the work in and leave the ego out. There are still thousands and thousands of people in your local cardroom or online who play hours of poker each week in the firm belief that the game is 90% luck. The WSOP ME this year will have at least 200 people who aren't fully sure of the rules - and another 2000 who are 100% dead money. There is plenty of value to be found and it is definitely possible to grind a profit.

As such, I think the idea of a mentoring program is good. In that exchanging ideas and forcing yourself to think about lines and articulate "WHY" you made that play will always be hugely beneficial. And by doing it you will automatically be way ahead of heaps and heaps of the competition in terms of your preperation to play a hand of poker.

HOWEVER:

Byron is hitting the nail on the head when he suggests that this is not the way to start. If:

- You have read all the books;
- You actively look at 2 or more poker forums every week and get at least 8 - 10 hrs of reading time in;
- You actively make the effort to engage in HH threads and post up hands you are unsure about somewhere;

Then maybe a mentoring program or buddying up program would be beneficial. But if you haven't done that much (the third being the most important) then you haven't exhausted all of the tools available.

Coaching is becoming an increasingly common tool for midstakes to highstakes online pros. But remember that there are countless examples of players who move through the levels pretty much on their own - and only develop a network of players they bounce ideas off after they have established themselves ast a decent level. It is true that all of the forums (including 2 + 2) are worse now then they were 2 - 3 years ago in that the very best of the best don't engage in the discussion with the same level of vibrancy and openess that they may have done in the past. This is because:

- The games are much tougher;
- People will pay large sums for coaching;

But there is still a ton of stuff to be found in the archives; and plenty of good posters and discussions that will pin your ears back. You need to be looking for it though in order to find it. And yeah, you may be reading something that is no longer as applicable as it was two years ago. Or the poster may have leaks in their game. But if it's new to you then you need to take it in and understand it before you can go forward

MY POINT?

The idea has a lot of merit and I don't think you need to be beating 5 / 10 to give beneficial advice. But like everything else in life, you will only take out of poker in the longterm what you put into it. If you aren't putting in the hours to grasp the basics and keep pace with the current debate then you are going to be wasting your time and the time of your prospective poker partner by engaging in this type of academic relationship.

[madasahatstand]

Lyod, while I agree with some of what you say, not everyone wants to and can learn the way you point out. I've never read a poker book but I have read the PHA and the debates that are sparked on blonde about hand play. This was after I got some coaching. The coaching sparked my interest in becoming a better player and allowed me to follow the PHA in a more constructive way. For me reading books felt too dry and non interactive. I read all day at work and like some personal engagement around poker because its fun. I had no intention of getting a coach. I had not even given it a thought but I was approached and took up the offer which had mutual benefits. Me practising poker in a constructive way and the coach practising his mentoring.

My point is that mentoring doesnt have to come AFTER you exhaust all the other options. It can act as a catalyst to using those other tools. I suppose it depends on who you are, what your own learning preference is, the stage of the game you are at, how seriously you take making money from poker. I'm sure there are lots of other variables but the key one for me is to have fun and not to be a losing player. I dont really care how much I win so maybe thats why I'm not actually interested in the books and not glued to the PHA section. I am interested in some more perspectives on my game now Ive practised a bit so if anyone would like to comment on my next MTT, I'll ship it to them. I'd prefer it wasnt anyone from the Blonde league though..haha  I dont want to give my game away:)

[Longy]

Out of interest, has anyone hooked up yet?

Not as far as I know, if they have,no one has told me.

I will let this run for a number till the end of the weekend to see if anyone else would like to get involved and then i will probably take on a couple of people myself and see how we go.

[AlexMartin]

OK, iv got a bit of time on my hands over the next couple of months. Im not a great cash player but i do earn my crust from it. As no one else has volunteered to hep out i figured ill put my neck out there. Im more than happy to take on board a mentee (is that even a word?) as i love blonde and want to put something back in to it and hopefully bounce ideas about. Only regular posters please. PM me if interested. 6M Cash games only.