Various tournament situations: guidance sought

[cooker3]

Our objective is to get our oppo to fold. When we push all-in we make a bet that looks like we want our oppo to fold and so this is why I don't like it. If he is holding Jack rag he will be MORE inclined to call because it looks like we don't want him to...and we don't...so all very easy to read. This is one of those situations where we are making a 30k bet by only risking 12k. Our oppo sees the implications of the bet not just the bet amount itself....so I really don't think he can CALL.

Our "pot-committing" c-r will force him to decide if his hand is good on the flop and he will make his decision there and then. He wont call with J rag only to call the expected all-in on the next street. So the question we pose by the 12k c-r is, Do you want to play your marginal hand for 30k? This is a more convincing indication of made strength and you achieve this by actually risking less. I am sure any hand that calls the 12k c-r would call an all-in anyway with the relative stack sizes.

So now that we're pot committed do we call a shove and hope to hit?  If we're doing anything here I think we c-r all in but I still prefer to check-fold, no need to go out on a draw from the BB

Well of course you are calling a shove. Your getting 2.66-1 and you are getting about 2-1.
Also saying stuff llike no need to go out on draw in bb is meaningless

[LuckyLloyd]

ONE:

My default would be to lead hand one - now that we didn't do that my default is to fold. The board texture provides a serious problem in that either:

- we have only 6 outs;
- we have 8 outs but never get paid when two of them hit;

If you checkraise here Jx isn't going away (I wouldn't be folding it that's for sure). Infact, if you checkraise here and get it in 66 - 1010 can legitamitely hero call you given that you've taken a 100% standard line for a flushdraw from the blinds.

Now, that being said, depending on the general standard of this particular cardroom and the villain in this hand - you may get bad tightweak folds if you force the matter. But if our opponents are competent and can read hands - you are just going to be getting chips in bad with no FE a lot of the time.

Additionally, a bet into this type of limped flop from the button is not ATC as much as you may like to think it is (or as much as it maybe should be). There are a lot of Jx hands that people will limp a button behind with; lots of XcXc type hands; 55; 33; 66 - 1010.

Calling this is NOT an option for me. We miss loads; we don't get more bets often enough when we hit. We are oop. We will have less than 2x the pot back on the turn if we do call. So I would just fold.

TWO:

Is close because the ante is so large and you are playing 6 handed. Guess at a range of hands they are willing to call with if you shove and work it out. Shoving cannot be THAT bad.

What is clear is that raise / folding or calling here IS pretty bad. On the one hand, your holding will compare badly against most any reasonable range that a villain holds if they stick you in and you call; but once you do raise it becomes less profitable to then fold as you have got an extra 12k into the pot which juices your odds on calling off the rest.

So shove or fold. Mmm. I think I shove a lot here in practice - simply because the ante is so large.

THREE:

You actually should want him to call after you ship.

[AlexMartin]

Fwiw Rich, if you craised me i would fold 333.

[TightEnd]

Villain would have folded if I had check raised, we are good mates and feedback each other regularly

[LuckyLloyd]

Villain would have folded if I had check raised, we are good mates and feedback each other regularly

Kinda makes posting the hand somewhat pointless, no?

[TightEnd]

Villain would have folded if I had check raised, we are good mates and feedback each other regularly

Kinda makes posting the hand somewhat pointless, no?

no!

[totalise]

Villain would have folded if I had check raised, we are good mates and feedback each other regularly

given this info, it makes hand 1 an easy one to play! Absent this info (which is prolly the point of your post otherwise you shoulda put it in the OP!.....) I'd prolly lead, given that you didn't, I'd still prolly send it in, sure enough he doesn't need much to call a push, but he doesnt always have a made hand, and I doubt hes calling with A high, and underpairs to the Jack fold at least a certain % of the time.

2 and 3 id ship it in, would like to see the math coz on first glance I didn't think either were particularly close but it looks like at least hand 2 might be.

[LuckyLloyd]

Villain would have folded if I had check raised, we are good mates and feedback each other regularly

Kinda makes posting the hand somewhat pointless, no?

no!

Eh, if you have a read that villain "would have folded if I check - raised" maybe include it in op? Cause if I knew that then I would suggest that the best line is to check - raise in this particular spot.  

[TightEnd]

as I didn't know that when I did OP...then I couldn't put it in..sent the thread to villain and he told me after

[LuckyLloyd]

I'd prolly lead, given that you didn't, I'd still prolly send it in, sure enough he doesn't need much to call a push, but he doesnt always have a made hand, and I doubt hes calling with A high, and underpairs to the Jack fold at least a certain % of the time.

Well, seen as the hand is now an abstract, lets assume that the villain is competent and can read hands. Obviously he will fold 66 - 1010 when he has them, but how often do we need him to fold them in order to profit?

I generally play draws in fifth gear - but only if the draw is clean and I reckon we can reasonably expect a lot of better hands to fold. Think of it like this:

if Hero flops one pair or better from the BB in a four way iimped pot on a board that is draw heavy does he ever ACTUALLY go for a checkraise? if Hero flops a flushdraw or a straightdraw from the BB in a four way limped pot on this type of board how often does he look to checkraise?

And crucially, even if the above doesn't apply to how Tightend normally plays and he is actually a very non - standard player - the key is that opponents will expect the above to be true. And will react here according to their expectations.

[LuckyLloyd]

as I didn't know that when I did OP...then I couldn't put it in..sent the thread to villain and he told me after

Right, well then your post on the first page where you lament the fact that you didn't have the balls to checkraise is balderdash. You couldn't have known that this dude was folding if you made a play at the pot. All you could do is work off the available information. I think check - raising in this type of spot is not good as per my initial post in this thread. As such, I think the line you took is a good one against the majority of opponents and you should feel good about the hand because you played it well.

There are many ways to be results orientated you know!! (irony ftw)

[totalise]

It all boils down to what % of his limping range is he gonna bet in this spot, once checked to,  and granted that wont be too high a %, which consequently means the F.E of the c/r should be quite low,  so shipping in here prolly isn't the best move, and check fold is most likely > check/send, but I cant help myself

[LuckyLloyd]

but I cant help myself

Discipline is kinda important in poker.

[TightEnd]

as I didn't know that when I did OP...then I couldn't put it in..sent the thread to villain and he told me after

Right, well then your post on the first page where you lament the fact that you didn't have the balls to checkraise is balderdash. You couldn't have known that this dude was folding if you made a play at the pot. All you could do is work off the available information. I think check - raising in this type of spot is not good as per my initial post in this thread. As such, I think the line you took is a good one against the majority of opponents and you should feel good about the hand because you played it well.

There are many ways to be results orientated you know!! (irony ftw)

sigh! there are many ways to be like a dog with a bone too!!!

At the table, at the time, I wish I had gone for it and filed away the thought for putting a thread up..hence my comments

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: TightEnd

button I know well, this is unlikely to be a monster pre-flop, limping on the button..could be Jx or clubs, could be nicking an orphan pot

 
I think this is the whole foundation of Hand 1. TightEnd SENSES weakness. The above is how it logically manifests itself into conscious thought. As such, if you c-r to 12k you make a play that looks like strength and has the best chance of exposing that weakness. I think the probabilty of completing the draw is insignificant and not really worth worrying about because all we are looking to do is jump on that perceived weakness and the question is how do we do this? TightEnd is then disappointed because he had a gut feeling/read, didn't have the faith in it to follow through, and allowed the cards themselves to direct him. What is the point in even entertaining the above thoughts if you then refer back to the cards to arrive at a final decision? The disappoinment comes from not having faith in the "feel" aspect of poker imo.