Ewwwwww tough donkament hand with decisions on multiple streets

[LLevan]

By not raising preflop with a premium hand you have allowed the suited connector brigade see a flop very cheaply and with 5 in  to see the flop theres a fair chance of at least 1 player sitting with suited connectors. All is not bad though since its still only a 1 in 4 chance that his suited connectors are matching the hearts on board. The other hands that could be out here are A rag suited KJ suited etc. to see a cheap flop early doors in a donkament. Having seen the queen on the flop to seeing a flushing board my mood has changed from delighted to horrified of what Ive got myself into by flat calling preflop. Still all is not lost we might wind up allin and start shouting at the screen "PAIR THE F***ING BOARD" and like Silo said I'd probably decide its time to check the lobby for the next tourny starting time.

[matt674]

and with 5 in  to see the flop theres a fair chance of at least 1 player sitting with suited connectors. All is not bad though since its still only a 1 in 4 chance that his suited connectors are matching the hearts on board.

5 players with a 1 in 4 chance - dont like those odds personally

[dino1980]

So I butchered this hand pretty bad no?

*** FLOP *** [ ]
dino1980: bets 180
I weak lead so that I can a) dump to really heavy action behind e.g re-raise and re-re-raise and b) if anyone does come over the top I can re-shove all-in whilst keeping one eye on the lobby. If I get flatted and then a 4th heart arrives then I throw up and check fold.
ibo_88: folds
MORIÑA: folds
mr_euro: folds
micke_jons: raises 320 to 500
dino1980: ??

Can we flat though? Or do we need to pump it or dump it?

[LLevan]

What would you be looking to do if a blank comes on the turn, presumably check, and then what if opponent goes allin?
Surely your decision on flop reraise bet of 320 is dependent on your answer to above question. The alternative thinking is to push to possibly take the pot down there and then or alternatively to give you no decisions on the turn if the board blanks.

[boldie]

Not really,   There's been a raise already, someone obv thinks they have something worth of raising - he isn't in great position so I'm guessing something niceish here.   There's been callers too.  If you raise big preflop, at least one of them is calling or coming over the top here. 

It's still really early on in the tournament, I don't see the point in raising big this early on to pick up a few hundred chips but risk losing a third of the stack.  I'd be thinking that I'd rather have a massive pot that I can scoop if I hit the flop hard.

The flops not great, but you still have a really good hand here.  Perhaps it's not ahead, but I'm expecting AA, KK or Ah x to be making a move here, especially if you check the flop. 

I really don't like that mentality in your first two lines here...you're asking to play a multi-way pot OOP and are only playing your Queens trying to hit a set. Any board is likely to kill you multiway if you don't hit a set. Most flops that you do feel comfortable with in a multi-way pot mean that you won't get paid off.
I am fine with getting one caller...or even someone moving all in preflop..this "he is moving all in pre-flop in an early level so must have kings or Aces" train of thought is starting to do my head in.

and then to check the flop when there are three hearts on board.. and only 400 in the pot. Any more Ah is going to make is a potsized bet (max)..he might come over the top if you fire in a bet first..there is no chance in hell he'll move all in on the flop unless you lead out and if he does only bet 350-400 he could very easily fold if you check -raise him...but if there are more callers IF he indeed bets the flop you will indeed be getting callers when you move all-in..and odds are that one of them will be the guy holding suited connectors whom you should have bet out of the pot pre-flop.

Check-calling  gives out free cards to anyone in the pot. and now you've gone from set mining with your queens to wanting a full house with your queens. You have to lead out here...and you really should raise pre-flop in a multiway pot when you are OOP holding queens.

[LLevan]

Going back to the original post and rereading the hand etc. my assumption is that the minimum holding for micke_jons here judged by the action is  x. I'm not too sure if I want any further part in this hand and might be prepared to wipe my mouth goodbye to the 260 chips I've put into this pot and wait for another opportunity to donk off my chips.

[boldie]

So I butchered this hand pretty bad no?

*** FLOP *** [ ]
dino1980: bets 180
I weak lead so that I can a) dump to really heavy action behind e.g re-raise and re-re-raise and b) if anyone does come over the top I can re-shove all-in whilst keeping one eye on the lobby. If I get flatted and then a 4th heart arrives then I throw up and check fold.
ibo_88: folds
MORIÑA: folds
mr_euro: folds
micke_jons: raises 320 to 500
dino1980: ??

Can we flat though? Or do we need to pump it or dump it?

the 180 bet is bad...really, bet something decent. What are you trying to do with that bet? that 180 allows everybody with a decent heart in.

You are playing this hand very passively and are almost making a case for folding QQ pre-flop OOP in a multi-way pot. I think the key to this hand is what you said first "Higher level buy-in than you usually play"..you are playing this hand like scared money.

[jezza777]

You say you want to control the pot preflop by not raising. So why bet 180 now? it it a bet begging to be raised, surley a check call gives you pot control and may give you a cheap enough turn. If you do want to bet here then bet a decent amount and it may buy you a free river. The 180 makea no sense to me at all what are you hoping to achieve with it?

[TightEnd]

Wow Nick, what a butchering!!!

All in or fold now

All in for me, and pray for the house

[Graham C]

I really don't like that mentality in your first two lines here...you're asking to play a multi-way pot OOP and are only playing your Queens trying to hit a set. Any board is likely to kill you multiway if you don't hit a set. Most flops that you do feel comfortable with in a multi-way pot mean that you won't get paid off.
I am fine with getting one caller...or even someone moving all in preflop..this "he is moving all in pre-flop in an early level so must have kings or Aces" train of thought is starting to do my head in.

and then to check the flop when there are three hearts on board.. and only 400 in the pot. Any more Ah is going to make is a potsized bet (max)..he might come over the top if you fire in a bet first..there is no chance in hell he'll move all in on the flop unless you lead out and if he does only bet 350-400 he could very easily fold if you check -raise him...but if there are more callers IF he indeed bets the flop you will indeed be getting callers when you move all-in..and odds are that one of them will be the guy holding suited connectors whom you should have bet out of the pot pre-flop.

Check-calling  gives out free cards to anyone in the pot. and now you've gone from set mining with your queens to wanting a full house with your queens. You have to lead out here...and you really should raise pre-flop in a multiway pot when you are OOP holding queens.

My mentality isn't that I'm assuming aces or kings, my mentality is that I'd like a nice pot.

Say we raise to 400, everyone folds, we get an extra 240 chips.  240 chips isn't going to make that much difference to my stack at the moment.  That's not to say I'm not happy picking up the odd pot here and there, but with a lot of interest, I'd like to get a lot more chips.

If we raise to 400 and all but one fold, the flop comes like it does, it's still risky, but ok you've narrowed down the chance of calling here. 

If we raise to 400 and someone pushes, you're left with a tough decision to make which will more than likely result in a fold and now you've lost a third of your stack.

All I'm saying is that in the very early stages, and only in the very early stages, I'd happy to call and hit a set here.  If it goes mental on the flop and I haven't hit a set, I can easily let go and it's not cost me much. 

Also, I do lead out on the flop, I never said I don't (I hope anyway!)

[jezza777]

I really don't like that mentality in your first two lines here...you're asking to play a multi-way pot OOP and are only playing your Queens trying to hit a set. Any board is likely to kill you multiway if you don't hit a set. Most flops that you do feel comfortable with in a multi-way pot mean that you won't get paid off.
I am fine with getting one caller...or even someone moving all in preflop..this "he is moving all in pre-flop in an early level so must have kings or Aces" train of thought is starting to do my head in.

and then to check the flop when there are three hearts on board.. and only 400 in the pot. Any more Ah is going to make is a potsized bet (max)..he might come over the top if you fire in a bet first..there is no chance in hell he'll move all in on the flop unless you lead out and if he does only bet 350-400 he could very easily fold if you check -raise him...but if there are more callers IF he indeed bets the flop you will indeed be getting callers when you move all-in..and odds are that one of them will be the guy holding suited connectors whom you should have bet out of the pot pre-flop.

Check-calling  gives out free cards to anyone in the pot. and now you've gone from set mining with your queens to wanting a full house with your queens. You have to lead out here...and you really should raise pre-flop in a multiway pot when you are OOP holding queens.

My mentality isn't that I'm assuming aces or kings, my mentality is that I'd like a nice pot.

Say we raise to 400, everyone folds, we get an extra 240 chips.  240 chips isn't going to make that much difference to my stack at the moment.  That's not to say I'm not happy picking up the odd pot here and there, but with a lot of interest, I'd like to get a lot more chips.

If we raise to 400 and all but one fold, the flop comes like it does, it's still risky, but ok you've narrowed down the chance of calling here. 

If we raise to 400 and someone pushes, you're left with a tough decision to make which will more than likely result in a fold and now you've lost a third of your stack.

All I'm saying is that in the very early stages, and only in the very early stages, I'd happy to call and hit a set here.  If it goes mental on the flop and I haven't hit a set, I can easily let go and it's not cost me much. 

Also, I do lead out on the flop, I never said I don't (I hope anyway!)

If you raise to 400 you want 56h to call......

[boldie]

I really don't like that mentality in your first two lines here...you're asking to play a multi-way pot OOP and are only playing your Queens trying to hit a set. Any board is likely to kill you multiway if you don't hit a set. Most flops that you do feel comfortable with in a multi-way pot mean that you won't get paid off.
I am fine with getting one caller...or even someone moving all in preflop..this "he is moving all in pre-flop in an early level so must have kings or Aces" train of thought is starting to do my head in.

and then to check the flop when there are three hearts on board.. and only 400 in the pot. Any more Ah is going to make is a potsized bet (max)..he might come over the top if you fire in a bet first..there is no chance in hell he'll move all in on the flop unless you lead out and if he does only bet 350-400 he could very easily fold if you check -raise him...but if there are more callers IF he indeed bets the flop you will indeed be getting callers when you move all-in..and odds are that one of them will be the guy holding suited connectors whom you should have bet out of the pot pre-flop.

Check-calling  gives out free cards to anyone in the pot. and now you've gone from set mining with your queens to wanting a full house with your queens. You have to lead out here...and you really should raise pre-flop in a multiway pot when you are OOP holding queens.

My mentality isn't that I'm assuming aces or kings, my mentality is that I'd like a nice pot.

Say we raise to 400, everyone folds, we get an extra 240 chips.  240 chips isn't going to make that much difference to my stack at the moment.  That's not to say I'm not happy picking up the odd pot here and there, but with a lot of interest, I'd like to get a lot more chips.

If we raise to 400 and all but one fold, the flop comes like it does, it's still risky, but ok you've narrowed down the chance of calling here. 

If we raise to 400 and someone pushes, you're left with a tough decision to make which will more than likely result in a fold and now you've lost a third of your stack.

All I'm saying is that in the very early stages, and only in the very early stages, I'd happy to call and hit a set here.  If it goes mental on the flop and I haven't hit a set, I can easily let go and it's not cost me much. 

Also, I do lead out on the flop, I never said I don't (I hope anyway!)

The flops not great, but you still have a really good hand here.  Perhaps it's not ahead, but I'm expecting AA, KK or Ah x to be making a move here, especially if you check the flop

this is why I thought you advocated a check on the flop.

In a 50$ tourney if I raise to 400 pre-flop to narrow the field and someone pushes I ussually call..and find they don't have aces or kings.

[LLevan]

I really don't like that mentality in your first two lines here...you're asking to play a multi-way pot OOP and are only playing your Queens trying to hit a set. Any board is likely to kill you multiway if you don't hit a set. Most flops that you do feel comfortable with in a multi-way pot mean that you won't get paid off.
I am fine with getting one caller...or even someone moving all in preflop..this "he is moving all in pre-flop in an early level so must have kings or Aces" train of thought is starting to do my head in.

and then to check the flop when there are three hearts on board.. and only 400 in the pot. Any more Ah is going to make is a potsized bet (max)..he might come over the top if you fire in a bet first..there is no chance in hell he'll move all in on the flop unless you lead out and if he does only bet 350-400 he could very easily fold if you check -raise him...but if there are more callers IF he indeed bets the flop you will indeed be getting callers when you move all-in..and odds are that one of them will be the guy holding suited connectors whom you should have bet out of the pot pre-flop.

Check-calling  gives out free cards to anyone in the pot. and now you've gone from set mining with your queens to wanting a full house with your queens. You have to lead out here...and you really should raise pre-flop in a multiway pot when you are OOP holding queens.

My mentality isn't that I'm assuming aces or kings, my mentality is that I'd like a nice pot.

Say we raise to 400, everyone folds, we get an extra 240 chips.  240 chips isn't going to make that much difference to my stack at the moment.  That's not to say I'm not happy picking up the odd pot here and there, but with a lot of interest, I'd like to get a lot more chips.

If we raise to 400 and all but one fold, the flop comes like it does, it's still risky, but ok you've narrowed down the chance of calling here. 

If we raise to 400 and someone pushes, you're left with a tough decision to make which will more than likely result in a fold and now you've lost a third of your stack.

All I'm saying is that in the very early stages, and only in the very early stages, I'd happy to call and hit a set here.  If it goes mental on the flop and I haven't hit a set, I can easily let go and it's not cost me much. 

Also, I do lead out on the flop, I never said I don't (I hope anyway!)

The flops not great, but you still have a really good hand here.  Perhaps it's not ahead, but I'm expecting AA, KK or Ah x to be making a move here, especially if you check the flop

this is why I thought you advocated a check on the flop.

In a 50$ tourney if I raise to 400 pre-flop to narrow the field and someone pushes I ussually call..and find they don't have aces or kings.

And if they have we've still got 2 outs and an eye on the lobby for the next donkament to start lol

[Longy]

Raise preflop to 400-500 for value and i probably do stack off especially if its not the original raisor who sets me in.

On the flop I lead for around the pot in a multiway monotone flop this is again for value and I definitley stack off here.

As for this talk of pot control, I think this concept is being massively misunderstood. Pot control is firstly mainly used in position as you can control the pot from here. If you oop to 5 players are we using some kind of Paul McKenna techinique to stop the other 4 betting and raising, it is very difficult to control from the sb here, nearly impossible I would say. Secondly pot control is used in a situation where getting raised is a bad thing and you have real trouble calling as your hand is marginal. I don't think this hand is marginal, some may disagree.

Please don't use pot control as an excuse for passive poker, passive poker is a long term way not to maximise the money you can make in poker.

[totalise]

playing QQ for set value seems like its taking the concept of "hoping to win a big pot" much too far...you can still win a big pot if you raise, people tend to play bad in small tournaments, so raise it up preflop and give them a chance to lose more chips!


as for the flop, get it in and watch 10/J with the 10h scoop the pot