sick spot (imo) from FTOPS 15

[dino1980]

This is the sickest spot i've found myself in quite some time. Villain is a v.gd known winning player (182% roi avg buy-in $100 over 600 tournamnets)

We have not seen them showdown a hand, they've played position once before when teh cut-off opened to 3x, they flatted, as did we from the SB with 66, we check folded a flop which contained 2overs + fd, teh c/o checked behind also and they pot out a 60% pot bet and took it down.

How do you like my line prior to the turn? Does villain ever have anything here that we beat?
After you throw up do you re-raise all-in or fold? IMO 6-6-6 was his most likely holding and after banking it i folded.


Full Tilt Poker Game #5267079369: FTOPS Event #15 (39924392), Table 280 - 170/340 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:41:50 ET - 2008/02/15
Seat 1: NIRIA (11,662)
Seat 2: dino1980 (18,345)
Seat 3: deuce is good (7,182)
Seat 4: slabstract (11,292)
Seat 5: emiwarg (4,720)
Seat 6: Claw1980 (12,810)
NIRIA antes 25
dino1980 antes 25
deuce is good antes 25
slabstract antes 25
emiwarg antes 25
Claw1980 antes 25
NIRIA posts the small blind of 170
dino1980 posts the big blind of 340
NIRIA: AT..
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dino1980 [ ]
deuce is good folds
slabstract calls 340
emiwarg folds
Claw1980 calls 340
NIRIA calls 170
dino1980 checks
*** FLOP *** [ ]
NIRIA bets 340
dino1980 raises to 1,360
slabstract folds
Claw1980 has 15 seconds left to act
Claw1980 calls 1,360
NIRIA folds
*** TURN *** [ ] []
dino1980 has 15 seconds left to act
dino1980 bets 2,222
Claw1980 has 15 seconds left to act
Claw1980 raises to 5,440
dino1980 has 15 seconds left to act
dino1980 has requested TIME

[Grier78]

Looks like a set of 6's to me, I think its a good fold.

[AlexMartin]

Looks like ur beat. Gd fold.

[MANTIS01]

I think if you want to look at how you played the hand then you will see that there is no real purpose to the 2,222 turn bet. On the flop NIRIA bets 340 and you raise to 1,360. Despite seeing bet and raise in front Claw1980 proceeds to smooth call EVEN THOUGH the original bettor is still active behind. This information is pretty clear isn't it?

If Claw1980 wanted to shove you off the pot with a draw then pushing the flop would be his best bet. His flat call however tells you everything you need to know. So you've got to ask yourself the purpose of betting the turn? I think your decision to fold on the turn comes a street too late. You have enough info to make a decision either way on the flop and the only reason to bet the turn would be with an intention of getting it all-in. Betting the turn to see what happens and THEN making a decision is donating chips because you already know how strong your oppo is. I also think a set is the most likely holding and you don't go broke in this unraised pot so that is a good thing.

[AlexMartin]

106, Qc10c are the hands im worried about btw.

I think if you want to look at how you played the hand then you will see that there is no real purpose to the 2,222 turn bet. On the flop NIRIA bets 340 and you raise to 1,360. Despite seeing bet and raise in front Claw1980 proceeds to smooth call EVEN THOUGH the original bettor is still active behind. This information is pretty clear isn't it?

If Claw1980 wanted to shove you off the pot with a draw then pushing the flop would be his best bet. His flat call however tells you everything you need to know. So you've got to ask yourself the purpose of betting the turn? I think your decision to fold on the turn comes a street too late. You have enough info to make a decision either way on the flop and the only reason to bet the turn would be with an intention of getting it all-in. Betting the turn to see what happens and THEN making a decision is donating chips because you already know how strong your oppo is. I also think a set is the most likely holding and you don't go broke in this unraised pot so that is a good thing.

This is so easy to say in principle, but villain does this with a lot of combo draws that dont stay so aggressive on the turn. WP dino!

[NoflopsHomer]

Only hand you're beating looks to be ...

[dino1980]

thanks for the replies every1 and Mantis you're right, in retrospect my turn bet is spew. FWIW villain had a set of twos

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: AlexMartin

This is so easy to say in principle

Yep, I agree with that. I'm not looking to criticise dino for his play but rather looking at how we can improve generally as players in this type of situation. The fact of the matter is that the turn bet IS redundant....we KNOW that to be true after the hand is completed and a set is shown. But the question is, can we avoid using those chips on the turn by assessing the flop action alone??...or do we absolutely need the turn bet to be certain??

imo only the nut flush draw can stand the prior action and even then I think a smooth call is a bit weak. Surely a good player doesn't stand this heat with middle pin draws?? Can we not say bet-raise-call is a formula for a hand that beats a weakish 2 pair, (if the call comes from a winning player), and save that turn money??

[dino1980]

A further question i'd like to pose here is this. I'd done a bit of reseach here on the villiain. By knowing he was a good player and that his range here included very few hands that I beat I made my decision IMO easier. Without the info I posted, e.g against a random donk, what do you do? I mean is a check call turn, check, fold (if any river bet) line acceptable? I mean in these FTOPS style events there are plenty of satellite donks (e.g me) who play these. I guess in essence is lead/folding chepaer than say check calling the turn then check/calling or check/folding the river?

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: dino1980

Without the info I posted, e.g against a random donk, what do you do?

Well, I think this becomes more tricky. Obviously poker is a game of information and if you have NO info about your oppo then decisions are harder. But let's say we default to the bet-raise-call = caution approach, and check the turn to our unknown oppo. I would then put a lot of emphasis on the SIZE of his bet, because naturally enough, this would be the only bit of info available. If he does have a set then we know he's playing it softly because his flop call shows he doesn't want to scare players away. That said you would think his turn bet would be a gentle one....no more than half the pot. This would remain consistent with his softly softly mentality. Alternatively, if he decides to press his draw you might expect a more forceful bet....because he doesn't really want the call and is pressurising your weakness as much as betting his draw. So if a big bet came in I would be inclined to push after checking whereas I would be more inclined to fold if a smaller one arrived.

[Grier78]

A further question i'd like to pose here is this. I'd done a bit of reseach here on the villiain. By knowing he was a good player and that his range here included very few hands that I beat I made my decision IMO easier. Without the info I posted, e.g against a random donk, what do you do? I mean is a check call turn, check, fold (if any river bet) line acceptable? I mean in these FTOPS style events there are plenty of satellite donks (e.g me) who play these. I guess in essence is lead/folding chepaer than say check calling the turn then check/calling or check/folding the river?

If a random donk is playing that way without the ball then its going to end badly for him very quickly as other random donks wont be good enough to fold.