Surely its time we are all on a DNA database

[Bongo]

This is highly worrying.

Here's a couple of examples...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/13/mp3_gun_swoop/
Someone thinks an mp3 player is a gun, calls the police, they find him on CCTV and he's arrested by armed police.

http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html
Man arrested for "looking suspicious" when entering tube station.

[steeveg]

the real reason for using dna testing, to stop little children being murdered by some pervert who we may easily of been caught years ago,

When will you ppl stop believing that these things are common occurences and therefore have some grasp of the proper use of resources.

a) such a proposal assumes that everyone is a potential criminal and this has overtones of repression
b) it won't stop crime
c) there is potential for abuse by future governments, they are imo only entitled to information that they require to provide me with services like any other organisation.
d) what are you going to do to the many who will refuse - jail them? -take samples by force?
e) there is huge potential for miscarriages of justice due false positives/contamination, at the very least many people will have to prove innocence.

Finally,  I'm sure the Nazis would have been far more efficient in purifying the Reich with such a database.

i am talking about trying to defend little children from attacks,from being tortured and abused by evil people who should be caught as soon as possible, its not about big brother to me , if the database was used for any other reason i would be as opposed to the idea as yourself.
these are not common occurrences that's the whole point ,the database should not be used to solve ordinary crime, leaving it open to abuse by a lot of people having access to very personal data.thats why it would not noticeably cut the crime rate, but does that mean we should not try to protect woman and children from attacks so sickening and horrific they devastate communities for years like the ripper did, when we may have been able to catch him after the first attack. this would also save a lot of police having to work for years trying to catch these people.
(a)no, innocent till proven guilty will always be first,
(b) stopping serial killers is not about reducing the crime rate its about catching the few crazy people in this world,  if a  sex killer commits his his first killing and is caught within weeks this would cut the crime rate for this crime.
(c) i agree there is potential for abuse of this system, that's why it should not be used as an excuse to solve ordinary crimes.
(d)  how it would be implemented is a separate issue which would cause uproar i agree
(5) i have never read far more cases of dna clearing falsely imprisoned people than innocent people getting convicted, how many people must there be in prison now who have been convicted by bad eyewitnesses and poor juries who wish dna could of been used to clear them, connection between the 3rd reich and a dna datbase and jews ,trying to protect children is going a bit far

[madasahatstand]

I have to say with the content of some of the views here, its clear a lot of folk do not understand what freedom and liberty mean. I'm not doubting the intentions are good but the implications are clearly not well thought through in many examples.

[madasahatstand]

DNA database.ID cards chips implanted cctv  ffs even oyster cards now track where u go  Big Brother is watching you well Big brother   GFY

Oyster card tracking evidence has now been used to obtain a conviction.

"Liberty, in modern time, is generally considered a concept of political philosophy and identifies the condition in which an individual has the ability to act according to his or her own will."

Someone having my DNA on record doesn't stop this surely?

If there was a national database or you committed a non serious 'recordable' crime, you would have no choice but to give a sample of DNA, even if you didnt want to. This does not constitute liberty and especially not freedom.

You don't need to have committed an offence, the mere fact that you have been arrested gives the right for police to take the sample by force, even if not charged.

This is highly worrying. Whats the  position on it among your peers Robert? Is it split into those lawyers who defend and prosecute?

Mad it was brought in as a package of measures and went through with only a modicum of pressure against. We are at a time when even prosecutors believe that Civil Liberties have taken a huge knock and the pendulum has swung massively in favour of the prosecution. At the same time Criminal Defence Legal Aid has been hit by severe cuts causing many firms forced to close or make defence lawyers redundant. I only work part time now. So many people were distracted when many anti-freedom changes were slipped in.

Thanks Robert, it appears the government/powers that be, have many techniques to take our eyes off the ball and many ways to put our eyes on a ball that isnt there. Take the example of where it has been proven that governments have comitted terrorism on their own countries only to blame it on others  as an excuse to go to war and raise anxieties among its people so they can put in what Robert describes as 'anti freedom changes'. It makes us feel more secure!! LMAO....... 

[Robert HM]

Last week there was a fuss about DNA from Holland gathering dust on a desk in the UK for year. It transpired that some of the samples related to people who had also committed crimes in this country as well. Much of the subsequent fuss was about the fact that the info hadn't been processed and used.

Nobody has raised other issues, such as:

1. Since when was it agreed that there will be international swapping of DNA data?
2. Nobody is saying the crimes wouldn't have been committed anyway
3. Why was the DNA data sent to the Crown Prosecution Service when they are not involved in investigation, that being the job of police.


As each day goes by we see a new surveillance camera being installed somewhere, a new form to complete for "record keeping" purposes etc etc.

Every now and then we hear about data being lost, misplaced, misdirected or whatever term the Government body wants to use. We only hear about the major cock ups and only when they are discovered. God knows how many other instances there have been.

I value my freedom, liberty and privacy, more it seems than some others on this thread. I don't want my details kept by some anally retentive bureaucratic government/Civil Service who, after offending my afore mentioned values, don't know how to properly use the information in the first place, or worse still knowingly misuse this information.

[madasahatstand]

Last week there was a fuss about DNA from Holland gathering dust on a desk in the UK for year. It transpired that some of the samples related to people who had also committed crimes in this country as well. Much of the subsequent fuss was about the fact that the info hadn't been processed and used.

Nobody has raised other issues, such as:

1. Since when was it agreed that there will be international swapping of DNA data?
2. Nobody is saying the crimes wouldn't have been committed anyway
3. Why was the DNA data sent to the Crown Prosecution Service when they are not involved in investigation, that being the job of police.


As each day goes by we see a new surveillance camera being installed somewhere, a new form to complete for "record keeping" purposes etc etc.

Every now and then we hear about data being lost, misplaced, misdirected or whatever term the Government body wants to use. We only hear about the major cock ups and only when they are discovered. God knows how many other instances there have been.

I value my freedom, liberty and privacy, more it seems than some others on this thread. I don't want my details kept by some anally retentive bureaucratic government/Civil Service who, after offending my afore mentioned values, don't know how to properly use the information in the first place, or worse still knowingly misuse this information.

 

[kinboshi]

I have to say with the content of some of the views here, its clear a lot of folk do not understand what freedom and liberty mean. I'm not doubting the intentions are good but the implications are clearly not well thought through in many examples.

I'm married.  I have no idea what freedom and liberty means.

[Grier78]

This is highly worrying.

Here's a couple of examples...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/13/mp3_gun_swoop/
Someone thinks an mp3 player is a gun, calls the police, they find him on CCTV and he's arrested by armed police.

http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html
Man arrested for "looking suspicious" when entering tube station.

If anyone hasn't taken the time to read the second one then I would advise it. Its incredible that it took so long for him to clear his name, I doubt many people would have his determination.

[madasahatstand]

This is highly worrying.

Here's a couple of examples...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/13/mp3_gun_swoop/
Someone thinks an mp3 player is a gun, calls the police, they find him on CCTV and he's arrested by armed police.

http://gizmonaut.net/bits/suspect.html
Man arrested for "looking suspicious" when entering tube station.

If anyone hasn't taken the time to read the second one then I would advise it. Its incredible that it took so long for him to clear his name, I doubt many people would have his determination.

Yes I agree, it could happen to you! 

[boldie]

the real reason for using dna testing, to stop little children being murdered by some pervert who we may easily of been caught years ago,

When will you ppl stop believing that these things are common occurences and therefore have some grasp of the proper use of resources.

a) such a proposal assumes that everyone is a potential criminal and this has overtones of repression
b) it won't stop crime
c) there is potential for abuse by future governments, they are imo only entitled to information that they require to provide me with services like any other organisation.
d) what are you going to do to the many who will refuse - jail them? -take samples by force?
e) there is huge potential for miscarriages of justice due false positives/contamination, at the very least many people will have to prove innocence.

Finally,  I'm sure the Nazis would have been far more efficient in purifying the Reich with such a database.

i am talking about trying to defend little children from attacks,from being tortured and abused by evil people who should be caught as soon as possible, its not about big brother to me , if the database was used for any other reason i would be as opposed to the idea as yourself.

OK, now guarantee me that nobody will ever use the database for anything other than the above.

It is silly to think that this is all it would be used for.

[Geo the Sarge]

Last week there was a fuss about DNA from Holland gathering dust on a desk in the UK for year. It transpired that some of the samples related to people who had also committed crimes in this country as well. Much of the subsequent fuss was about the fact that the info hadn't been processed and used.

Nobody has raised other issues, such as:

1. Since when was it agreed that there will be international swapping of DNA data?
2. Nobody is saying the crimes wouldn't have been committed anyway
3. Why was the DNA data sent to the Crown Prosecution Service when they are not involved in investigation, that being the job of police.


As each day goes by we see a new surveillance camera being installed somewhere, a new form to complete for "record keeping" purposes etc etc.

Every now and then we hear about data being lost, misplaced, misdirected or whatever term the Government body wants to use. We only hear about the major cock ups and only when they are discovered. God knows how many other instances there have been.

I value my freedom, liberty and privacy, more it seems than some others on this thread. I don't want my details kept by some anally retentive bureaucratic government/Civil Service who, after offending my afore mentioned values, don't know how to properly use the information in the first place, or worse still knowingly misuse this information.

 

Can't understand why it's considered a good post with a comment like this. Robert, think of it this way, maybe others on this thread also value their freedom, liberty and privacy just as much but are prepared to sacrifice a little bit of this so that others can be safer.

Geo

[Bongo]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

[totalise]

id happily give up some libery and freedom to reduce the chances of small kids/women getting raped/beated/murdered.  If that means i cant break the law by smoking weed, drink driving or stuff like that, its a minute price to pay. id happily do it. Can one of the learned people tell me what liberties we would give up under this system?

[Geo the Sarge]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Another quote from Mr franklin:
as we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;

Quotes are much like statistics, they can be used various ways depending on views. Like proverbs, for most quotes there is usually another countermining.

E.G. - Too many cooks spoil the broth - many hands make light work.

[madasahatstand]

id happily give up some libery and freedom to reduce the chances of small kids/women getting raped/beated/murdered.  If that means i cant break the law by smoking weed, drink driving or stuff like that, its a minute price to pay. id happily do it. Can one of the learned people tell me what liberties we would give up under this system?

And how would me giving me DNA stop those crimes you describe? Or yours for that matter?  The liberty some would be giving up is consent and the freedom of choice. A blanket database may be a choice you would make based on your assumptions about DNA stopping crime, but it's not the choice of many.....