Surely its time we are all on a DNA database

[doubleup]

id happily give up some libery and freedom to reduce the chances of small kids/women getting raped/beated/murdered. 

Totalise, you make your living by make better risk based decisions than your opponents on the poker table.  Why does that logic go out the window when you are considering a) the actual instances of these crimes b) whether these crimes would actually be less likely if such a database existed c) the possible misuse of the information on the database to intervene in citizens lives d) the huge cost of maintaing the database and the loss of other public services.

A hypothetical situation:  Lets say a gene that leads to premature death is discovered and there is a simple cure.  The dna database can identify all those at risk.  There is no doubt that under those circumstances the database would be used to identify those at risk.  Once this happens the genie is out of the bottle.  What other interventions will take place?  What other assumptions will be made about individuals as various patterns in genes are discovered?  Perhaps a terrorist gene?  Perhaps a gene that according to scientists is highly likely to lead to anti-social behaviour - better lock them up just in case.

    

[totalise]

Question:

If a family member was murdered and the only evidence against the criminal was a DNA link, would you be glad that that link was there or would you be asking the court not to convict because the criminals civil liberty/freedom of choice had been infringed??

Geo

what is the purpose if this Q? of course any family member would latch onto the DNA link!!  it eases their pain

it has nothing to do with civil liberties/loss of freedom

[madasahatstand]

id happily give up some libery and freedom to reduce the chances of small kids/women getting raped/beated/murdered.  If that means i cant break the law by smoking weed, drink driving or stuff like that, its a minute price to pay. id happily do it. Can one of the learned people tell me what liberties we would give up under this system?

And how would me giving me DNA stop those crimes you describe? Or yours for that matter?  The liberty some would be giving up is consent and the freedom of choice. A blanket database may be a choice you would make based on your assumptions about DNA stopping crime, but it's not the choice of many.....

it would be a zero sum percentage. I am still yet so see a logical reason to argue against it... i see a lot of people crowing aboout consent and freedom of choice.. but my perspective is that if there is a 1% chance this would reduce rape and child crimes... id happily go for it.... even if it meant i got "done" for smoking weed.

Maybe you are stoned right now?  

What would happen if it became law and people were jailed for not consenting to give DNA?  Would you drag them kicking and screaming? Thats one example of loss of freedom because how else would you enforce it?

no i dont do drugs, unlike most law abiding people.  your example shows no depth. I still want one person to tell me why DNA sampling is so bad for a human. Give DNA, help stamp it out, and be happy. If you want to smoke pot and break the law, fair play to you.

okay, since you are not keeping up, I will talk you through this

1) database becomes law
2) some people dont give samples
3) those people fined, jailed and punshed by the law
4) Those people forced to give samples


This is all against their will and if you see that as shallow? theres no hope for you

[totalise]

id happily give up some libery and freedom to reduce the chances of small kids/women getting raped/beated/murdered. 

Totalise, you make your living by make better risk based decisions than your opponents on the poker table.  Why does that logic go out the window when you are considering a) the actual instances of these crimes b) whether these crimes would actually be less likely if such a database existed c) the possible misuse of the information on the database to intervene in citizens lives d) the huge cost of maintaing the database and the loss of other public services.

A hypothetical situation:  Lets say a gene that leads to premature death is discovered and there is a simple cure.  The dna database can identify all those at risk.  There is no doubt that under those circumstances the database would be used to identify those at risk.  Once this happens the genie is out of the bottle.  What other interventions will take place?  What other assumptions will be made about individuals as various patterns in genes are discovered?  Perhaps a terrorist gene?  Perhaps a gene that according to scientists is highly likely to lead to anti-social behaviour - better lock them up just in case.

   

i want to know about the misuse of the data... coz i really have no understanding of it.

[Geo the Sarge]

I can think of a million ways such a database could be used in future to take away people's liberty. No one can guarantee that these won't happen.

so tell us in detail all these millions of ways it might happen! coz i cant see it

http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/

Passage from above link:

The fact is, IBM technology was used to organize nearly everything in Germany and then Nazi Europe, from the identification of the Jews in censuses, registrations, and ancestral tracing programs to the running of railroads and organizing of concentration camp slave labor.


What has that got to do with DNA??

[totalise]

id happily give up some libery and freedom to reduce the chances of small kids/women getting raped/beated/murdered.  If that means i cant break the law by smoking weed, drink driving or stuff like that, its a minute price to pay. id happily do it. Can one of the learned people tell me what liberties we would give up under this system?

And how would me giving me DNA stop those crimes you describe? Or yours for that matter?  The liberty some would be giving up is consent and the freedom of choice. A blanket database may be a choice you would make based on your assumptions about DNA stopping crime, but it's not the choice of many.....

it would be a zero sum percentage. I am still yet so see a logical reason to argue against it... i see a lot of people crowing aboout consent and freedom of choice.. but my perspective is that if there is a 1% chance this would reduce rape and child crimes... id happily go for it.... even if it meant i got "done" for smoking weed.

Maybe you are stoned right now?  

What would happen if it became law and people were jailed for not consenting to give DNA?  Would you drag them kicking and screaming? Thats one example of loss of freedom because how else would you enforce it?

no i dont do drugs, unlike most law abiding people.  your example shows no depth. I still want one person to tell me why DNA sampling is so bad for a human. Give DNA, help stamp it out, and be happy. If you want to smoke pot and break the law, fair play to you.

okay, since you are not keeping up, I will talk you through this

1) database becomes law
2) some people dont give samples
3) those people fined, jailed and punshed by the law
4) Those people forced to give samples


This is all against their will and if you see that as shallow? theres no hope for you

so what? i got a better idea.. if you dont break the law, give samples, then u dont have to get forced into doing it. If you do worry about it, stop breaking the law, and accept that human life is more important then whether or not you can get stoned on a weekend.

[Bongo]

They made a database of the population and used it to aid them in trying to wipe out the jews...

If you can't see the parallels to a database of DNA then I am seriously worried!

[doubleup]

id happily give up some libery and freedom to reduce the chances of small kids/women getting raped/beated/murdered. 

Totalise, you make your living by make better risk based decisions than your opponents on the poker table.  Why does that logic go out the window when you are considering a) the actual instances of these crimes b) whether these crimes would actually be less likely if such a database existed c) the possible misuse of the information on the database to intervene in citizens lives d) the huge cost of maintaing the database and the loss of other public services.

A hypothetical situation:  Lets say a gene that leads to premature death is discovered and there is a simple cure.  The dna database can identify all those at risk.  There is no doubt that under those circumstances the database would be used to identify those at risk.  Once this happens the genie is out of the bottle.  What other interventions will take place?  What other assumptions will be made about individuals as various patterns in genes are discovered?  Perhaps a terrorist gene?  Perhaps a gene that according to scientists is highly likely to lead to anti-social behaviour - better lock them up just in case.

   

i want to know about the misuse of the data... coz i really have no understanding of it.

My hypothetical example is a scenario where the data will ultimately be used for other purposes than the detection of crime.

[totalise]

They made a database of the population and used it to aid them in trying to wipe out the jews...

If you can't see the parallels to a database of DNA then I am seriously worried!

instead of saying you are worried, explain it!!!!!!!!!!!

[totalise]

id happily give up some libery and freedom to reduce the chances of small kids/women getting raped/beated/murdered. 

Totalise, you make your living by make better risk based decisions than your opponents on the poker table.  Why does that logic go out the window when you are considering a) the actual instances of these crimes b) whether these crimes would actually be less likely if such a database existed c) the possible misuse of the information on the database to intervene in citizens lives d) the huge cost of maintaing the database and the loss of other public services.

A hypothetical situation:  Lets say a gene that leads to premature death is discovered and there is a simple cure.  The dna database can identify all those at risk.  There is no doubt that under those circumstances the database would be used to identify those at risk.  Once this happens the genie is out of the bottle.  What other interventions will take place?  What other assumptions will be made about individuals as various patterns in genes are discovered?  Perhaps a terrorist gene?  Perhaps a gene that according to scientists is highly likely to lead to anti-social behaviour - better lock them up just in case.

   

i want to know about the misuse of the data... coz i really have no understanding of it.

My hypothetical example is a scenario where the data will ultimately be used for other purposes than the detection of crime.

ok explain that! where would our DNA get voilated.

[Geo the Sarge]

Question:

If a family member was murdered and the only evidence against the criminal was a DNA link, would you be glad that that link was there or would you be asking the court not to convict because the criminals civil liberty/freedom of choice had been infringed??

Geo

what is the purpose if this Q? of course any family member would latch onto the DNA link!!  it eases their pain

it has nothing to do with civil liberties/loss of freedom

The purpose of the question was to ascertain whether the "I'll fight for your rights" brigade would be happy for evidence which was gathered by a method they disagreed with should be used in court. The purpose of linking it to a family member was to ask them to really think about it before replying.

And I'm glad you agree that it has nothing to do with civil liberties/loss of freedom.

Geo.

[Bongo]

They made a database of the population and used it to aid them in trying to wipe out the jews...

If you can't see the parallels to a database of DNA then I am seriously worried!

instead of saying you are worried, explain it!!!!!!!!!!!

I just posted a link to a book about a similar system being used to facilitate the holocaust.

[thediceman]

It is possible to appreciate the value of DNA evidence in solving crime and disagree with the value of a "compulsory" national DNA database. Therefore your question is somewhat flawed.

[Geo the Sarge]

They made a database of the population and used it to aid them in trying to wipe out the jews...

If you can't see the parallels to a database of DNA then I am seriously worried!

instead of saying you are worried, explain it!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree, the database used was built for purpose, to identify wqho the Germans wanted and then carry out what they did. The fact that you feel that this tactic would be used in mordern day Britain totally astounds me.

Please explain.............

Geo

[totalise]

i want to know where our liberties would be compromised if we had a DNA database.  What are the repercussiions?