Pick your five against the field for next week's GUKPT

[DaveShoelace]

Great little thread this.

The future of sponsorship for those of us that are not famous for whacking a ball with a bat ultimatley comes down to one thing - rake.

Anyone who can bring to the table an argument for bringing more rake to the poker room one way or another puts themselves in good shape to get sponsored. If I remember rightly, didnt the Blue Square pros have a rake race amongst themselves for a seat at the one seater thing Alex Martin won? This is a fantastic idea and I think sums up exactly what John says, about the only way standard sponsorship will survive. Especially when you seem to get loads of sponsored players who can be found regularly at Full Tilt and not at their own poker room, which is pretty shameful.

A lot of poker rooms have very good VIP programmes which allow you to get sponsorship in return for X amount of player points. This to me makes perfect sense, why should Daniel Negreanu go to a WPT event on revenue that someone else playing 16 tables at a time, 7 days a week generated? Much better to send the 16 table sicko and send a message to potential customers that their loyalty can be rewarded too.

Green Joker Poker signed up their first sponsored player in Rob Taylor this year. Prior to this, Taylor had been grinding away at their tables, wearing the GJP logo at events  and promote the room at any given opportunity for free - he gave something back without asking for anything in return and was rewarded with a sponsorship deal. Likewise, if you look at the sponsorship of Dario Minieiri and Elky by Pokerstars, its as much because they were hugely loyal customers (First two to supernova?) as they are 'poker superstars'.

I know of a poker room (I wont give out the name as Im not sure this is publicily known) that give out sponsorship deals to people who can bring new sign ups to their room, affiliate managers essentially.

I personally have a sponsorship deal riight now with VC Poker, I'm not sure if they would want me to divulge the specific details, but rest assured I play plenty of hands in their card room, do lots of extra work with them and generally wax lyrical about all the fanastic player benefits they have to offer.

I know I've rambled a bit and essentially just copied what John has said and reworded it, but the future of sponsorship is all around customer loyalty and retention, and quite rightly so.

[byronkincaid]

but rest assured I play plenty of hands in their card room, do lots of extra work with them

does that mean that you have to pay tax on the tournament buy ins?

[DaveShoelace]

but rest assured I play plenty of hands in their card room, do lots of extra work with them

does that mean that you have to pay tax on the tournament buy ins?

lol, didnt mean it like that, i meant 'voluntary' work of course

[quantify]

although the post was   honest it was somewhat ill advised, i hope the bsq pros dont read their fate on here. It is a very interesting subject, in most cases sites dont get value for money from their "sponsored players", poker players by nature are only interested in poker , not running up and down the country doing PR work like sponsor deals in other sports. 

now where does the blame lie,,,,,,,,, well if we arebeing honest i think it lies with the group companies that own the sites, they recruit young people with little or no marketing experience , let alone sales experience.

so, the uk/euro internet poker world has evolved to what it is today, an industry that did well early on,then had an hiccup with the american legislation,  now sits there wondering how they can report to group how their business plan is showing little growth. the business plan comes back from group saying we need more (profit and turnover).....the very young and inexperienced poker manager then has to cut his clothh accordingly.. he goes about thus;

advertising ......welll we need to keep that budget ......... we dont get players elsewhere because we dont think outside the box, we need the adverts so we can attract the same amount of players in through the front door as we lose through the back. a

rakeback ... we can reduce that a little but we can pay 45% to jonny boy who plays a lot


sponsorship deal .........we can cut it back a little ..........does anybody know what he does for us, hmmmm we can cut it out if we need ......




that is a basic as it comes and i had first hand experience of a similar situation.
 now the fault is 100% self caused............in the usa the sponsored guys are used to work in poker forums, write articles in magazines, create clothing brands, talk at seminars just like the sponsored sports man.........
it is no secret the finalists in the wsop all got   some sort of deal  EXCEPT ONE and ill leave you to guess who that was......... the usa , canadian and skandi sites all used the short term exploitation of the finalist to create more interest in the sites , the players were rewarded for it , a magnificent achievement lets exploit it to full potential;

the uk sitessssssssss ,well they wouldnt have the skill sets or the foresight to exploit that  opportunity, then they have the gaul to complain when something they are guilty of creating, without using to 10% of its  potential , starts to bite them in the rump

l will  give you an example of a marketing opportunity they seem to have missed , they sponsor a player all year round , for very little return (so they say) they THEN PAY TENS IF NOT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF POUNDS IN ABVERTISING IN POKER MAGAZINES THAT ARE IN THE MAIN READ BY POKER PLAYERS WHO ARE ALREADY FIXED ON A SITE. they cant afford the budgets to advetise on tv to build the sites profile........................Now how basic would it be for a poker manager to hanG around an ept final or a matchroom tv event to find out who is on the final table ..........  lets say i had wore a shirt for the party poker european open on the bases of the following


1, wear our logo for free in the heat 1  hour tv coverage in 30 plus countries that is repeated on a 3 month loop


2 if you reach the semi final 2 hours tv coverage on channel five then we will put you into an gkupt event

3,if you reach the final we will give you an 2 gkupt event s

4 IF YOU WIN IT AN EPT

THEY WOULD GET HUNDREDS OF HOURS OF COVERAGE , FOR LITTLE MONEY,,,,,,,,,THE COST OF ADVETISING TO THAT EXTENT ON TV WOULD BE HUGE



just a basic example, when i was in the european masters final in vienna i was offered the following by absolute poke

5k euro for wearing th shirt 15k for second 25 k for first...........they didnt know me from adam but their was other austrian german sites on the final table so they wanted their logo promoted.
in the ept final in ireland pokerstars offered me 3 epts, but i had a hills shirt on and they offered one seat in copenahagen ,so  i stayed with them (stupid but true)
IT IS A MARKETING OPPORTUNIY THEY ALL SEEM TO MISS..... it baffles me why they dont have someone stalking the final tables of all tv events..........they do in the states.........

so to conclude,  it is easy to criticise something that hasnt worked , but it is all down to the inabilty of the people (the groups employ)_ to create revenue streams out of their players they sponsor..............

it is all you own doing , it is a perfect multi marketing opportunity , but the sites will never deliver it. I WOULD HAVE SPONSORED PLAYERS IN MOST CARDROOMS AROUND THE COUNTRY ALL WEARING MY SITES SHIRT , ALL PAID FOR BY THE RAKEBACK CREATED BY THEIR PORTFOLIO OF LOCAL PLAYERS, THESE GUYS WOULD BE MANAGED BY REGIONAL MANAGERS WHO PLAY SLIGHTLY HIGHER , WHO ULTIMATLEY REPORT TO THE "SPONSORED PRO" FOR THE NORTH OF ENGLAND, HE WOULD HAVE A BUDGET TO REACH IF HE WNTED THE DEAL NEXT YEAR , WITH BELLS AND WHISTLES IF HE EXEEDED IT

[DaveShoelace]

Not sure if agree with all of it or know why some bits were in CAPITALS, but some very interesting points here.

I certainly agree with the thing about poker magazine advertising, 99% of the people that buy them already have an account with Stars, FT, Party etc

The idea of hanging round a TV table with shirts ready for anyone willing to wear one certainly is a good opportunity, however it doesnt relate quite so much to this discussion on getting sponsorship into the event in the first place. I had a funny conversation with an online blackjack company recently who asked me if I could suggest a player who was probably going to win or make a TV table at the WSOP next year, so they could give them a shirt to wear. They were pretty shocked when I told them I wasnt able to pick out a winner or tv table maker from the 8000 odd projected entrants (Or course I suggested I was a likely candidate, you have to try dont you).

At the WSOPE last year the two guys that qualified on Betfair that made the final were offered entry into the same event for the next two years, on condition that they wore the betfair shirts on TV (Side note, is that ever going to be televised?) - thats £40,000 on offer just for two guys to wear a shirt on presumably a fringe slot on the TV schedule. It would be interesting to see if poker rooms or anyone could estimate a £ value on their poker shirt appearing on say, channel 5 midweek at midnight or sky sports on a wednesday night. The shows do have between 200-500000 viewers on average and are syndicated worldwide.

Ultimatley though, wearing a poker shirt on TV or signing Boris Becker is there to put an image of that poker brand in the mind of a current non poker player, and the stuff Jon was talking about was the importance of customer retention of those people who dont need to see poker adverts in their poker magazines. Equally important methinks.

Good thread this

[quantify]

of course retention is important , but there are very few sites that could survive by concentrating on retention........they have all been fishing in the same pond for some time now .
you only have to look at the way dtd have formulated their maketing strategy, 2 pronged attack at players who multi table in skandi land to sponsoring some faces in uk poker, and when they had been used to their full potential they released them....
harsh for the guys that thought they were ona good deal but perfect timing for the site , they have built a good turnover online in a short period of time , i would hazard a guess they are prob number 2 raker on crypto, you match that with the way littlewoods(another crypto site) have gone about their marketing and its a little embarrising for such a large company .
bsq are guilty as anyone , they seem to be moving their strategy on in a different direction now but it is TOTALLY REACTIVE TO THEIR MARKET POSITION.
they areobviously taking the view they arent  getting value for money from their pros but if they had more foresite in their initial approach to the market by creating more revenue streams then the cost of the sponsored pro would be diluted ..........

they arent gettin value for money cos they arent getting a return , the legend works hard but look at the ricketts that they made signing young jp,  he wouldnt even wear a shirt with the name on ...........

so they  have to look in the mirror and say we created this monster , i would like to look at the positive sponsor ship deals and say well done to those sites, if hills are still backiing thewy it is because he is succcesful on and off the table and long may it continue.............


there is a marketing tale about a crisp firm , who decided they no longer needed a prescence in the media they lost their shelf space countrywide in 6 months, poker sites need salesmen who are good at poker they just dont know it yet

[quantify]

i must explain about the caps and the awful grammar,

i cant be bothered presenting it correctly and whenever i go near the A BUTTON I CATCH THE CAPS LOCK and only realise when i look up.

oh and by the wy my 5 picks are


tiny tyler he is to good not to win one soon

funny feelin about the javelin with love handles in pete linton

thewy , you cant leave him out

mick fletcher is due

i fancy ben from stoke to take one down soon.........
 

[ariston]

Interesting debate this one.

My views on sposorship.

I think the days of the sponsored pro are over. There are now too many big winners to get sponsorship. A few years ago if you won a bracelet or late night poker you were guaranteed a deal. Now there are so many tournaments which means there are many more winners- you look how many EPTs,WPts GUKTPs, Irish opens etc etc etc there are. To get a deal now you have to be very lucky, a world superstar type or a big raker. More and more sites will be working towards sponsoring their big rakers shortly as its not giving anything away, it is just a glorified loyalty scheme. Player retention is key to any site as the market is becoming flooded and the sooner sites start making sure a player stays loyal to their site by giving them live seats as rewards the better.

I dont think bluesquare are announcing an end to their sponsorship team I think it will probably be expanded but it will be as a reward to their loyal players and is the correct way forward. Praz, Karl and Kev play online a lot and Mickey has been very good for them and is always willing to do the PR side of things (he is a good salesman/spokesman for the site imo).

Thewy is a different case and by his own admittance he was in the right place at the right time to pick up the deal. His results and personality will make sure he is always a sponsored player as he is one of the only guys on the circuit I have never heard a bad word said against. He is an absolute credit to his sponsor. 

Pokerstars and Fulltilt set the mark with their aggresive marketing and sponsorship and they have been rewarded with by far the busiest sites on the net and pay very little or no rakeback. They are now reaping the rewards of their massive marketing spend and have so much money they can sponsor anyone they fancy very easily.

[AndrewT]

I know at the WSOP a couple of years ago a couple of poker rooms would have a representative circling around the final stages of the televised events carrying two holdalls. One would be full of branded shirts and caps and the other would be full of cash...

[ariston]

couple of years ago? it was still going on this year. Fullt tilt were paying hundreds of thousands to get their logo on that final table for anyone not associated to a site already (ie almost anyone at the final table). This is dealt with by poker agents who simply approach you before the biggest final table of your life to say - heres $200k to wear our shirt/cap/logo. If you win it we will give you a million and a sponsorship deal. Who in their right mind woudl say no thanks I much prefer my Hugo Boss shirt and you can keep your 200 large.

[Ironside]

couple of years ago? it was still going on this year. Fullt tilt were paying hundreds of thousands to get their logo on that final table for anyone not associated to a site already (ie almost anyone at the final table). This is dealt with by poker agents who simply approach you before the biggest final table of your life to say - heres $200k to wear our shirt/cap/logo. If you win it we will give you a million and a sponsorship deal. Who in their right mind woudl say no thanks I much prefer my Hugo Boss shirt and you can keep your 200 large.

whose hugo boss and will he sponsor me?

[Karabiner]

Interesting debate this one.

My views on sposorship.

I think the days of the sponsored pro are over. There are now too many big winners to get sponsorship. A few years ago if you won a bracelet or late night poker you were guaranteed a deal. Now there are so many tournaments which means there are many more winners- you look how many EPTs,WPts GUKTPs, Irish opens etc etc etc there are. To get a deal now you have to be very lucky, a world superstar type or a big raker. More and more sites will be working towards sponsoring their big rakers shortly as its not giving anything away, it is just a glorified loyalty scheme. Player retention is key to any site as the market is becoming flooded and the sooner sites start making sure a player stays loyal to their site by giving them live seats as rewards the better.

I dont think bluesquare are announcing an end to their sponsorship team I think it will probably be expanded but it will be as a reward to their loyal players and is the correct way forward. Praz, Karl and Kev play online a lot and Mickey has been very good for them and is always willing to do the PR side of things (he is a good salesman/spokesman for the site imo).

Thewy is a different case and by his own admittance he was in the right place at the right time to pick up the deal. His results and personality will make sure he is always a sponsored player as he is one of the only guys on the circuit I have never heard a bad word said against. He is an absolute credit to his sponsor. 

Pokerstars and Fulltilt set the mark with their aggresive marketing and sponsorship and they have been rewarded with by far the busiest sites on the net and pay very little or no rakeback. They are now reaping the rewards of their massive marketing spend and have so much money they can sponsor anyone they fancy very easily.

Errr Full Tilt have one of the best and easiest to get rakeback deals out there....

[AndrewT]

couple of years ago? it was still going on this year. Fullt tilt were paying hundreds of thousands to get their logo on that final table for anyone not associated to a site already (ie almost anyone at the final table). This is dealt with by poker agents who simply approach you before the biggest final table of your life to say - heres $200k to wear our shirt/cap/logo. If you win it we will give you a million and a sponsorship deal. Who in their right mind woudl say no thanks I much prefer my Hugo Boss shirt and you can keep your 200 large.

Yeah, I did assume they were still doing it, but I was out there in 2006 and saw it, but wasn't out there last year.

When you consider they spent a nine figure dollar sum on promotion and marketing in their first couple of years it's quite small fry.

[quantify]

i know that they are defining their strategy in that way russ, but,andit is a big BUT, why  are they now being reactive to ending up, in which ,was an obvious cul-de-sac .
 
i cant beleive they didnt work the sponsored pro on a target driven process until now.........i agree with all the comments that jon made but how many good intenet players are good live or vica versa, totally different animal and field of battle ...................should a loyalty scheme for multi tablers be the right move for the future, i guarantee that it will be cut back in 2 years time and they will end up with sales/poker affiliat that are selling the site.

how are they going to grow without a european distribution network.........they  are thinking retention when they should be thinking growth , they will be one trick ponies forever .

blue square are using the affiliate network in eastern  europe with a guy i know , i hope it works cos he is a nice fella but ..... pay as you go poker is the only way forward........... recruitment creating commision  translate that into buy ins andthey all win..........

e
question for you............. when was the last time you were approached by a site rep (player or otherwise) to encourage you to play on their site.?.

chubbs nowab was proffesional anddetermind to get players on dtd and it has worked, and the only other time i have been approached was by t j clotier in copenhagen who was working the floor for some obscure yank site....................

god forbid if the sites thought about a sales strategy

[Royal Flush]

they arent gettin value for money cos they arent getting a return , the legend works hard but look at the ricketts that they made signing young jp,  he wouldnt even wear a shirt with the name on ...........

I agree with a lot of what you say but this is wrong, JP wore BSQ logo's at every event i played and every picture i saw of him at other events he was wearing a logo.

It's true he wasn't a fan of the plain white shirt so he got BSQ to put the logo on some of his own shirts.