wot do u think is the correct play?

[boldie]

Can we turn this hand around? You're CL and find pocket Jacks, and open up for 7800 from UTG..find a couple of limpers and then someone (2nd in chips and can cripple you) shoves 130k in the middle. You're a good winning player and you've stolen several pots off this player by re-raising him.
He shoves and you're playing for your tournament life.

do you make the call with your Jacks? what hand do you put him on?..Is it only AK that he would do this with on a FT of a tourney or is AK one of the better scenarios?

[I KNOW IT]

thanks for ur responses guys. i did infact shove this hand. the CL took his whole time bank before calling wiv  . his jacks held and i was absolutely gutted to go out 9th.

afterwards there were a few points me and my friends discussed.

- my shove screams AK. UpTheMariners actually phoned me to say  "u have AK dont u". the CL is probably fairly certain he is racing. with 3 other callers in the pot, it is very possible some of my outs are already gone, and he is willing to take this gamble in order to be in an extremely strong position to win the tournament.

- because of this, maybe a raise to 40-55k and then shove any flop makes my hand look stronger and makes it look more like i have KK or AA. i have 2 chances to win this hand. i either take it down preflop, or give him a very tough decision on the flop (which came queen high).

any views on this??

i dont think i made the wrong decision in shoving, as half the time i win. maybe this is just another approach i could take in the future

Most certainly looks like AK being such a big over raise.
. Would you shove with AA or KK in this spot? I see so many shove with AK online. Are people scared to play flops and choose instead to  race?
Personally Id prefer the above mentioned play of raise to 35k.  If he repops you then you can re evaluate. You will still have 80k with blinds at 1500 3000 if you fold or you can go with him. Im not saying you should fold but reraising to about 35k is going to give you a little more info before you commit your whole stack.  I suppose it amounts to how confident you are in your post flop play. I personally aint a fan of preflop coin flips when I have a stack still allowing a lot of play.Remember you said he was a decent player and he knows you can severly cripple him also, so its not going to be a straight forward reshove from him with out AA or KK
Why reduce your edge

One of the things imo that makes Helmuth a great N/L tourny player apart from his great ability to read people is his perfect bet sizes. He gets all the desired  reactions or information with out pushing all his stack in

[I KNOW IT]

Can we turn this hand around? You're CL and find pocket Jacks, and open up for 7800 from UTG..find a couple of limpers and then someone (2nd in chips and can cripple you) shoves 130k in the middle. You're a good winning player and you've stolen several pots off this player by re-raising him.
He shoves and you're playing for your tournament life.

do you make the call with your Jacks? what hand do you put him on?..Is it only AK that he would do this with on a FT of a tourney or is AK one of the better scenarios?

The hand im scared of in this scenario is QQ. I dont think he would do it with AA or KK. Why scare off utg raiser with a 15x reraise with AA or KK when I can hope to extract a lot more from him. AK is far more probable. I agree its big call with JJ but I dont think Im losing at this moment in time.
If AgentChip was ever going to get villain to fold I dont think he needed his whole stack to do it.

[Benny Brox]

I couldn't call with Jacks in this spot. 2nd chip leader has re-raised an UTG raise all-in from the BB with 3 limpers, at best I'm against AK. If I've been pushing you around and playing well I could easily lay this down and wait for better spots, why risk your whole stack on JJ!! I think he's made a mistake here and there's nothing wrong with your push.

[I KNOW IT]

I couldn't call with Jacks in this spot. 2nd chip leader has re-raised an UTG raise all-in from the BB with 3 limpers, at best I'm against AK. If I've been pushing you around and playing well I could easily lay this down and wait for better spots, why risk your whole stack on JJ!! I think he's made a mistake here and there's nothing wrong with your push.

Another thought could be villian put AgentChip on a squeeze play after the 2 limpers have joined the party and thought his JJ were a clear favourite

[Longy]

thanks for ur responses guys. i did infact shove this hand. the CL took his whole time bank before calling wiv  . his jacks held and i was absolutely gutted to go out 9th.

afterwards there were a few points me and my friends discussed.

- my shove screams AK. UpTheMariners actually phoned me to say  "u have AK dont u". the CL is probably fairly certain he is racing. with 3 other callers in the pot, it is very possible some of my outs are already gone, and he is willing to take this gamble in order to be in an extremely strong position to win the tournament.

- because of this, maybe a raise to 40-55k and then shove any flop makes my hand look stronger and makes it look more like i have KK or AA. i have 2 chances to win this hand. i either take it down preflop, or give him a very tough decision on the flop (which came queen high).

any views on this??

i dont think i made the wrong decision in shoving, as half the time i win. maybe this is just another approach i could take in the future

Most certainly looks like AK being such a big over raise.
. Would you shove with AA or KK in this spot? I see so many shove with AK online. Are people scared to play flops and choose instead to  race?
Personally Id prefer the above mentioned play of raise to 35k.  If he repops you then you can re evaluate. You will still have 80k with blinds at 1500 3000 if you fold or you can go with him. Im not saying you should fold but reraising to about 35k is going to give you a little more info before you commit your whole stack.  I suppose it amounts to how confident you are in your post flop play. I personally aint a fan of preflop coin flips when I have a stack still allowing a lot of play.Remember you said he was a decent player and he knows you can severly cripple him also, so its not going to be a straight forward reshove from him with out AA or KK
Why reduce your edge

Erm what postflop play? If you make it 35k and get one caller say. That is 81k in the pot with about the same back in effective stacks, no player in the world has any significant edge post flop here.

What do we do on all flops that miss us? Check give up, shove and prey. Any bet pot commits us. We deny ourselves the chance to see 5 cards which we get by shoving us. If the flop hits us we are unlikely to make more as a,k are scare cards.

I would shove with qq and jj here as well, if we are talking about balancing ranges.

[LeKnave]

Can we turn this hand around? You're CL and find pocket Jacks, and open up for 7800 from UTG..find a couple of limpers and then someone (2nd in chips and can cripple you) shoves 130k in the middle. You're a good winning player and you've stolen several pots off this player by re-raising him.
He shoves and you're playing for your tournament life.

do you make the call with your Jacks? what hand do you put him on?..Is it only AK that he would do this with on a FT of a tourney or is AK one of the better scenarios?

I'm pretty sure id call with JJ in his spot, squeezing is so commen atm in poker that i wdnt be surprised to see 44+/AJ+ from the shover.

Unless the tbl is vvvv weak passive and i can just bleed every1.

[AgentChip109]

i agree its a big call wiv JJ. i dont wanna give the impression the guy was outplaying me, we were involved in a few battles that went both ways. i think the guy viewed me as a good player and this was his opportunity to be rid of me and be in a monsterous position, so he took his opportunity.

someone mentioned why would i want to race for all my chips after getting this far. the truth is, i didnt want to race, but put the decision on the CL as to whether he wanted to race, and he accepted this offer.

i take ur point longy about making it 40k, then shoving the flop. like i said, i still think i made the right decision by pushing, just was wondering if the other option was a reasonable one to take

[I KNOW IT]

thanks for ur responses guys. i did infact shove this hand. the CL took his whole time bank before calling wiv  . his jacks held and i was absolutely gutted to go out 9th.

afterwards there were a few points me and my friends discussed.

- my shove screams AK. UpTheMariners actually phoned me to say  "u have AK dont u". the CL is probably fairly certain he is racing. with 3 other callers in the pot, it is very possible some of my outs are already gone, and he is willing to take this gamble in order to be in an extremely strong position to win the tournament.

- because of this, maybe a raise to 40-55k and then shove any flop makes my hand look stronger and makes it look more like i have KK or AA. i have 2 chances to win this hand. i either take it down preflop, or give him a very tough decision on the flop (which came queen high).

any views on this??

i dont think i made the wrong decision in shoving, as half the time i win. maybe this is just another approach i could take in the future

Most certainly looks like AK being such a big over raise.
. Would you shove with AA or KK in this spot? I see so many shove with AK online. Are people scared to play flops and choose instead to  race?
Personally Id prefer the above mentioned play of raise to 35k.  If he repops you then you can re evaluate. You will still have 80k with blinds at 1500 3000 if you fold or you can go with him. Im not saying you should fold but reraising to about 35k is going to give you a little more info before you commit your whole stack.  I suppose it amounts to how confident you are in your post flop play. I personally aint a fan of preflop coin flips when I have a stack still allowing a lot of play.Remember you said he was a decent player and he knows you can severly cripple him also, so its not going to be a straight forward reshove from him with out AA or KK
Why reduce your edge

Erm what postflop play? If you make it 35k and get one caller say. That is 81k in the pot with about the same back in effective stacks, no player in the world has any significant edge post flop here.

What do we do on all flops that miss us? Check give up, shove and prey. Any bet pot commits us. We deny ourselves the chance to see 5 cards which we get by shoving us. If the flop hits us we are unlikely to make more as a,k are scare cards.

I would shove with qq and jj here as well, if we are talking about balancing ranges.

EERRMMM  The 35k gives us an option of winning the pot there and then vs .AJ low pp etc. It gives us a chance to find out where we are if he just calls or reshoves before we commit our whole stack. I know its good to see 5 cards with AK but Im not the greatest fan of pushing preflop with 115k at 1500 3000 blinds when Im sitting comfortable and feel I might have an edge over the table and get the job done a lot cheaper

Im not saying it was a mistake by the way, just offering a different view in playing it

 

[Benny Brox]

Can we turn this hand around? You're CL and find pocket Jacks, and open up for 7800 from UTG..find a couple of limpers and then someone (2nd in chips and can cripple you) shoves 130k in the middle. You're a good winning player and you've stolen several pots off this player by re-raising him.
He shoves and you're playing for your tournament life.

do you make the call with your Jacks? what hand do you put him on?..Is it only AK that he would do this with on a FT of a tourney or is AK one of the better scenarios?

I'm pretty sure id call with JJ in his spot, squeezing is so commen atm in poker that i wdnt be surprised to see 44+/AJ+ from the shover.

Unless the tbl is vvvv weak passive and i can just bleed every1.

This could be an option, if you've pushed someone about and they make a stand against you their range can significantly reduce, but as Chip's said he thinks the other player regards him as a sensible player he shouldn't put him on that wide a range here, especially being in a healthy chip position.

[AgentChip109]

oh yeah, i forgot to mention, by making it 35-40k, wouldnt u agree it makes our hand look stonger??? makin it this amount, i believe, makes my hand look more like AA or KK. i think hes more likely to fold to a reraise to this amount rather then a shove


btw, the opponent is called twlaing. anyone played or heard of him?

[I KNOW IT]

oh yeah, i forgot to mention, by making it 35-40k, wouldnt u agree it makes our hand look stonger??? makin it this amount, i believe, makes my hand look more like AA or KK. i think hes more likely to fold to a reraise to this amount rather then a shove

Thats the point i was trying to make. why on earth would you shove with AA or KK here?  If I was VILLAIN only hand Ive got t be worried about is QQ
AK or squeeze play is far more probable

[I KNOW IT]

thanks for ur responses guys. i did infact shove this hand. the CL took his whole time bank before calling wiv  . his jacks held and i was absolutely gutted to go out 9th.

afterwards there were a few points me and my friends discussed.

- my shove screams AK. UpTheMariners actually phoned me to say  "u have AK dont u". the CL is probably fairly certain he is racing. with 3 other callers in the pot, it is very possible some of my outs are already gone, and he is willing to take this gamble in order to be in an extremely strong position to win the tournament.

- because of this, maybe a raise to 40-55k and then shove any flop makes my hand look stronger and makes it look more like i have KK or AA. i have 2 chances to win this hand. i either take it down preflop, or give him a very tough decision on the flop (which came queen high).

any views on this??

i dont think i made the wrong decision in shoving, as half the time i win. maybe this is just another approach i could take in the future

Most certainly looks like AK being such a big over raise.
. Would you shove with AA or KK in this spot? I see so many shove with AK online. Are people scared to play flops and choose instead to  race?
Personally Id prefer the above mentioned play of raise to 35k.  If he repops you then you can re evaluate. You will still have 80k with blinds at 1500 3000 if you fold or you can go with him. Im not saying you should fold but reraising to about 35k is going to give you a little more info before you commit your whole stack.  I suppose it amounts to how confident you are in your post flop play. I personally aint a fan of preflop coin flips when I have a stack still allowing a lot of play.Remember you said he was a decent player and he knows you can severly cripple him also, so its not going to be a straight forward reshove from him with out AA or KK
Why reduce your edge

Erm what postflop play? If you make it 35k and get one caller say. That is 81k in the pot with about the same back in effective stacks, no player in the world has any significant edge post flop here.

What do we do on all flops that miss us? Check give up, shove and prey. Any bet pot commits us. We deny ourselves the chance to see 5 cards which we get by shoving us. If the flop hits us we are unlikely to make more as a,k are scare cards.

I would shove with qq and jj here as well, if we are talking about balancing ranges.

I didnt necessarily mean post flop on this hand, I mean Im confident on a whole with  my postflop play and decisions rather than preflop shoves. Especially when Im in a good position stackwise. Id rather try and find out where I am in a hand with a well sized reraise than shove and hope he folds, because hes unlikely to call 115k with a hand Im dominating

[Longy]

thanks for ur responses guys. i did infact shove this hand. the CL took his whole time bank before calling wiv  . his jacks held and i was absolutely gutted to go out 9th.

afterwards there were a few points me and my friends discussed.

- my shove screams AK. UpTheMariners actually phoned me to say  "u have AK dont u". the CL is probably fairly certain he is racing. with 3 other callers in the pot, it is very possible some of my outs are already gone, and he is willing to take this gamble in order to be in an extremely strong position to win the tournament.

- because of this, maybe a raise to 40-55k and then shove any flop makes my hand look stronger and makes it look more like i have KK or AA. i have 2 chances to win this hand. i either take it down preflop, or give him a very tough decision on the flop (which came queen high).

any views on this??

i dont think i made the wrong decision in shoving, as half the time i win. maybe this is just another approach i could take in the future

Most certainly looks like AK being such a big over raise.
. Would you shove with AA or KK in this spot? I see so many shove with AK online. Are people scared to play flops and choose instead to  race?
Personally Id prefer the above mentioned play of raise to 35k.  If he repops you then you can re evaluate. You will still have 80k with blinds at 1500 3000 if you fold or you can go with him. Im not saying you should fold but reraising to about 35k is going to give you a little more info before you commit your whole stack.  I suppose it amounts to how confident you are in your post flop play. I personally aint a fan of preflop coin flips when I have a stack still allowing a lot of play.Remember you said he was a decent player and he knows you can severly cripple him also, so its not going to be a straight forward reshove from him with out AA or KK
Why reduce your edge

Erm what postflop play? If you make it 35k and get one caller say. That is 81k in the pot with about the same back in effective stacks, no player in the world has any significant edge post flop here.

What do we do on all flops that miss us? Check give up, shove and prey. Any bet pot commits us. We deny ourselves the chance to see 5 cards which we get by shoving us. If the flop hits us we are unlikely to make more as a,k are scare cards.

I would shove with qq and jj here as well, if we are talking about balancing ranges.

I didnt necessarily mean post flop on this hand, I mean Im confident on a whole with  my postflop play and decisions rather than preflop shoves. Especially when Im in a good position stackwise. Id rather try and find out where I am in a hand with a well sized reraise than shove and hope he folds, because hes unlikely to call 115k with a hand Im dominating

So your going to put a 1/3 of your stack in "to find out where you are". So once we reraise lets see what info we have.

Folds: We just made a range of hands fold that we are ahead of, but shoving achieves the same. So no differnce there.

Calls: Only the chipleader is going to flat here really, so we have know find out where we are haven't we. Whats his calling range here? Any ideas cos i don't. Then we have to play the flop oop with no room for manouevre. Shoving avoids all this and i think you agree that while you may be better than most postflop, you have no real significant edge over any play this deep post flop.

Shoves: We fold right cos we must be beat? Err no lets say he only shove with ak qq+, which is realistic but super tight. We are getting laid close to 2 to 1. And have 39% equity against this range so have to call as folding is a mistake.

So only the middle option is where the difference lays and makes for tricky decisions which no matter how good you are postflop are tricky.

[I KNOW IT]

thanks for ur responses guys. i did infact shove this hand. the CL took his whole time bank before calling wiv  . his jacks held and i was absolutely gutted to go out 9th.

afterwards there were a few points me and my friends discussed.

- my shove screams AK. UpTheMariners actually phoned me to say  "u have AK dont u". the CL is probably fairly certain he is racing. with 3 other callers in the pot, it is very possible some of my outs are already gone, and he is willing to take this gamble in order to be in an extremely strong position to win the tournament.

- because of this, maybe a raise to 40-55k and then shove any flop makes my hand look stronger and makes it look more like i have KK or AA. i have 2 chances to win this hand. i either take it down preflop, or give him a very tough decision on the flop (which came queen high).

any views on this??

i dont think i made the wrong decision in shoving, as half the time i win. maybe this is just another approach i could take in the future

Most certainly looks like AK being such a big over raise.
. Would you shove with AA or KK in this spot? I see so many shove with AK online. Are people scared to play flops and choose instead to  race?
Personally Id prefer the above mentioned play of raise to 35k.  If he repops you then you can re evaluate. You will still have 80k with blinds at 1500 3000 if you fold or you can go with him. Im not saying you should fold but reraising to about 35k is going to give you a little more info before you commit your whole stack.  I suppose it amounts to how confident you are in your post flop play. I personally aint a fan of preflop coin flips when I have a stack still allowing a lot of play.Remember you said he was a decent player and he knows you can severly cripple him also, so its not going to be a straight forward reshove from him with out AA or KK
Why reduce your edge

Erm what postflop play? If you make it 35k and get one caller say. That is 81k in the pot with about the same back in effective stacks, no player in the world has any significant edge post flop here.

What do we do on all flops that miss us? Check give up, shove and prey. Any bet pot commits us. We deny ourselves the chance to see 5 cards which we get by shoving us. If the flop hits us we are unlikely to make more as a,k are scare cards.

I would shove with qq and jj here as well, if we are talking about balancing ranges.

I didnt necessarily mean post flop on this hand, I mean Im confident on a whole with  my postflop play and decisions rather than preflop shoves. Especially when Im in a good position stackwise. Id rather try and find out where I am in a hand with a well sized reraise than shove and hope he folds, because hes unlikely to call 115k with a hand Im dominating

So your going to put a 1/3 of your stack in "to find out where you are". So once we reraise lets see what info we have.

Folds: We just made a range of hands fold that we are ahead of, but shoving achieves the same. So no differnce there.

Calls: Only the chipleader is going to flat here really, so we have know find out where we are haven't we. Whats his calling range here? Any ideas cos i don't. Then we have to play the flop oop with no room for manouevre. Shoving avoids all this and i think you agree that while you may be better than most postflop, you have no real significant edge over any play this deep post flop.

Shoves: We fold right cos we must be beat? Err no lets say he only shove with ak qq+, which is realistic but super tight. We are getting laid close to 2 to 1. And have 39% equity against this range so have to call as folding is a mistake.

So only the middle option is where the difference lays and makes for tricky decisions which no matter how good you are postflop are tricky.

Shoving here is getting 2 answers. #1: Fold  #2 Called by a better Hand unless its AK also
If you shove for that amount you are hoping for option 1 

This is against the only guy who can bust you who has raised UTG after being quiet for some time. I think that shows some sort of strength.

If you raise it up to 30k and he shoves for another 100k Id say  you are not winning at that point. Now you have to decide if you want to go on a coinflip at best( unlikely he would do this AQ or less ) or swallow and and keep yourself 85k and have confidence in your ability to come back as the blinds are relatively small, at least you have the option of which way to proceed in the hand this way
I repeat its very doubtful you are ahead if he shoves back at you
 
If its a hand you are dominating I would think you would take it there and then with the 30k raise, it doesnt take your whole stack to get the desired result

I also think it looks far stronger than a shove.

Also Im certainly not saying Im better than most at postflop play, but Im certainly not scared of playing flops
Thats one of the reasons I prefer live far more than online as I get a far better feel for it

I also understand mathmatics is an important factor but reading situations and good decision making is equally important

Theres a good argument for both plays as  described but its each to their own I suppose

This is only my take on an alternative way of playing the hand and my reasoning behind it.