Shove or standard raise?

[ACE2M]

4 handed in a decent sized tournament

i am 3rd in chips with 330,000, villian is CL with 440,000, others on 350,000 and 160,000
Blinds 10,000/20,000

Villian is good and has aggressively accumulated chips with re raises and check raise and normal raises

i'm utg and villian is BB

i have  and open to 55,000

only villian calls

flop = 

villian checks

Shove or Standard raise?

[boldie]

standard raise is about half your stack and also says you're not going anywhere. (you have to call any push anyways)..much of the same to me..but a standard raise is fine.

[ACE2M]

sorry, i actually had about 330,000 when the hand started, makes a big difference i think.

[boldie]

sorry, i actually had about 330,000 when the hand started, makes a big difference i think.

yeah it does as you could fold to a shove when you stick in a 60- 80k raise (though it'd only leave you with 10-11 BB's but OK)

he can check raise with a massive range of hands if he thinks a standard raise is weak (it depends on your tournament history) so you have to make your mind up before you make any move..both essentially have the same result as the chips would still go in.
I bet 80k (not too much and not too little) and call a shove.

[ACE2M]

sorry, i actually had about 330,000 when the hand started, makes a big difference i think.

yeah it does as you could fold to a shove when you stick in a 60- 80k raise (though it'd only leave you with 10-11 BB's but OK)

he can check raise with a massive range of hands if he thinks a standard raise is weak (it depends on your tournament history) so you have to make your mind up before you make any move..both essentially have the same result as the chips would still go in.
I bet 80k (not too much and not too little) and call a shove.

my image is definitely quite tight

First thought was standard raise and let him check raise me with a draw or worse (or better but thats just hard lines), then i felt like protecting my position with a shove and taking it down and being very healthy in chips.

[TheChipPrince]

Raymer says if you have less than 3x the size of the pot when betting, stick the lot in... Here i agree...

[boldie]

Raymer says if you have less than 3x the size of the pot when betting, stick the lot in... Here i agree...

well, the lot will go in no matter what for me. (I won't stick in 80k and then fold)..but is it optimal to shove here? he can re-steal with a massive range of hands if the tournament history is right. which in this case it isn't.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: ACE2M

then I felt like protecting my position with a shove and taking it down and being very healthy in chips.

If you shove here you will certainly get worse hands to fold....and you will increase your initial 330,000 stack by 65k. With the blinds at 10,000/20,000 this equates to one standard raise or 8 further hands of poker. So you don't really protect your position....you just give yourself a few extra hands. To win the tournament you need to get every chip in play and avoiding confrontation doesn't do this. You have flopped top pair decent kicker, 4-handed, against the aggressive CL.

What hand is going to come up over the next 8 that will give you a better or more exploitable situation than this??

There is 120k in this pot, so just bet 60k and see if he wants to try and push you of it.
 

[TheChipPrince]

Posted by: ACE2M

then I felt like protecting my position with a shove and taking it down and being very healthy in chips.

If you shove here you will certainly get worse hands to fold....and you will increase your initial 330,000 stack by 65k. With the blinds at 10,000/20,000 this equates to one standard raise or 8 further hands of poker. So you don't really protect your position....you just give yourself a few extra hands. To win the tournament you need to get every chip in play and avoiding confrontation doesn't do this. You have flopped top pair decent kicker, 4-handed, against the aggressive CL.

What hand is going to come up over the next 8 that will give you a better or more exploitable situation than this??

There is 120k in this pot, so just bet 60k and see if he wants to try and push you of it.
 

With the intention of calling his shove i presume?

[boldie]

Posted by: ACE2M

then I felt like protecting my position with a shove and taking it down and being very healthy in chips.

If you shove here you will certainly get worse hands to fold....and you will increase your initial 330,000 stack by 65k. With the blinds at 10,000/20,000 this equates to one standard raise or 8 further hands of poker. So you don't really protect your position....you just give yourself a few extra hands. To win the tournament you need to get every chip in play and avoiding confrontation doesn't do this. You have flopped top pair decent kicker, 4-handed, against the aggressive CL.

What hand is going to come up over the next 8 that will give you a better or more exploitable situation than this??

There is 120k in this pot, so just bet 60k and see if he wants to try and push you of it.
 

With the intention of calling his shove i presume?

you can not fold to his shove in my humble opinion (or atleast I wouldn't in 90% of the cases) so it could easily be the best play. Tournament history could be very important here in decided what to do but I reckon betting and calling a shove is better than just shoving.

[Royal Flush]

CB 1/2 pot, snap

[ACE2M]

Posted by: ACE2M

then I felt like protecting my position with a shove and taking it down and being very healthy in chips.

If you shove here you will certainly get worse hands to fold....and you will increase your initial 330,000 stack by 65k. With the blinds at 10,000/20,000 this equates to one standard raise or 8 further hands of poker. So you don't really protect your position....you just give yourself a few extra hands. To win the tournament you need to get every chip in play and avoiding confrontation doesn't do this. You have flopped top pair decent kicker, 4-handed, against the aggressive CL.

What hand is going to come up over the next 8 that will give you a better or more exploitable situation than this??

There is 120k in this pot, so just bet 60k and see if he wants to try and push you of it.
 

exactly the thoughts i settled on and exactly what i did, over the top he came with nut flush draw and unfortunately hit it.

i was happy with the play just wondering if there is good argument for shoving.

[AlexMartin]

CB 1/2 pot, snap

 

[Longy]

CB 1/2 pot, snap

This. Making a bet that looks weak to induce a shove from worse.

[MANTIS01]

Your oppo has shown he likes to c-raise and re-raise at will. So betting 60k gives him the impression you have enough behind to fold....and he may take the bait to shove with lots of worse hands. And that's what happened here. Shoving yourself COULD get him to fold....but you don't want that. Playing for 670k with your oppo hunting one of 12 cards is a good situation for you.