Ready to call then.....

[UpTheMariners]

GAME #1401746936: Texas Hold'em NL Tournament 2008-03-12 23:29:08
Table 144959862 (Tournament: $25,000 Guaranteed R/A Buy-In: $200+$15)
Seat 1: P0nt00n86 ($42,433.00 in chips)
Seat 2: ALICAT1230 ($28,345.00 in chips)
Seat 3: jafaha ($20,900.00 in chips)
Seat 4: johnie5tits ($6,365.00 in chips)
Seat 5: GABIN1110 ($26,662.50 in chips)
Seat 6: Papilla ($15,030.00 in chips)
Seat 7: blukaspa ($6,467.00 in chips)
Seat 9: baldiniubeatable ($8,010.00 in chips) DEALER
Seat 10: HandofDeath ($6,090.00 in chips)
HandofDeath: Post SB $400.00
P0nt00n86: Post BB $800.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to P0nt00n86 [   ]
ALICAT1230: Fold
jafaha: Raise $2,000.00
johnie5tits: Fold
GABIN1110: Fold
Papilla: Fold
blukaspa: Fold
baldiniubeatable: Fold
HandofDeath: Fold
P0nt00n86: Call $1,200.00
*** FLOP *** [     ]
P0nt00n86: Check
jafaha: Bet $2,400.00
P0nt00n86: Call $2,400.00
*** TURN *** [ ]
P0nt00n86: Check
jafaha: Check
*** RIVER *** [ ]
P0nt00n86: Check
jafaha: Bet $15,200.00
P0nt00n86: ....?


i was ready to call his river bet then he overbets should i still call?

[UpTheMariners]

wow i should really pay more attention!!! 88 obv... didn't notice at the time lol

[AlexMartin]

I definiteyl bet the turn to protect my hand here. Roughly 9k in the middle and he aint checking a strong made hand here very often. That comp has immense value though i thought........

[boldie]

I definiteyl bet the turn to protect my hand here. Roughly 9k in the middle and he aint checking a strong made hand here very often. That comp has immense value though i thought........

you're out of position though.

[Longy]

3 bet preflop? You must be ahead of his range unless he is a total nit.

Postflop is fine I think, though i dump it on the river.

Are you suggesting donking the turn Alex? Thoughts on why we are doing this its not a line I use very often, I presume its for value.

[AlexMartin]

I definiteyl bet the turn to protect my hand here. Roughly 9k in the middle and he aint checking a strong made hand here very often. That comp has immense value though i thought........

you're out of position though.

meh, need to read hand histories more thoroughly. EEK. This hand perfectly illustrates why being oop sucks bigtime. Stick this in the learning centre longy, its a great example to mull over imo.

This is exactly the situation i have real trouble with and im sure i leak a fuck load in these spots. I guess 3bet pre negates positional disadvantage. I also dont mind leading the flop tbh, purely because im going to hate being oop on later streets on this board and dont mind taking this down. This a tough cookie imo.

[boldie]

I definiteyl bet the turn to protect my hand here. Roughly 9k in the middle and he aint checking a strong made hand here very often. That comp has immense value though i thought........

you're out of position though.

meh, need to read hand histories more thoroughly. EEK. This hand perfectly illustrates why being oop sucks bigtime. Stick this in the learning centre longy, its a great example to mull over imo.

This is exactly the situation i have real trouble with and im sure i leak a fuck load in these spots. I guess 3bet pre negates positional disadvantage. I also dont mind leading the flop tbh, purely because im going to hate being oop on later streets on this board and dont mind taking this down. This a tough cookie imo.

the key here for me is image and being fearless.

If you have the right (tight) image the flat call pre-flop already means that on the flop you can take the pot. You HAVE TO bet out on the flop or check raise here. I hate the check call here to be honest. if you have the wrong (loose) image you can get paid off pre-flop if you re-raise.

It's tough because it's completely situational but I think howing some aggression at some stage before the river will be better than check calling all the way through.

[UpTheMariners]

ive got 52 big blinds and hes got 25 big blinds do we really need to get it in pre flop? what does check raising all in on the flop achieve? what hand am i getting him to fold?

[boldie]

ive got 52 big blinds and hes got 25 big blinds do we really need to get it in pre flop? what does check raising all in on the flop achieve? what hand am i getting him to fold?

you don't have to get it all in pre-flop..there's nothing wrong with re-raising him pre-flop though and leading out almost any flop.
Also nothing wrong with representing a hand that's not scared of the board by check-raising the flop after he bets out.

I also never said all-in on the flop.
I just don't like this idea of "There is one overcard so I'll just check call my way through the hand" I also can't believe your oppo checked the turn as i never would have done that in position after raising pre-flop and on the flop so in all you would still get loads of your chips in the pot...unless you would have folded had he continued to bet the turn and river?

Like I said it's situational and in this case against this oppo you might very well have done the right thing..I am not doubting that for a minute. In most cases however I would probably get chips in there some other way than check calling through the hand though. (I could of course be completely wrong doing that so would love to hear others ideas on it)

[PocketLady]

Personally I re-raise preflop, or check-raise/bet out on the flop.  But then I do have a tendancy to overplay JJ from time to time.  If you check-raise on the flop and get called/raised you can assume you are up against KQ minimum and get out of the way, but most missed hands and smaller pairs fold here. By check-calling through the hand you are allowing any potential over cards/draws time to hit.  He has free cards all the way down.  But a raise from you on the flop would prevent him catching a draw on the turn.  It's better to win a small pot, than lose a big one, especially against an opponent with a healthy stack, so I try and take it down, whilst being prepared to lay down to a reraise if I must.

[Longy]

Personally I re-raise preflop, or check-raise/bet out on the flop.  But then I do have a tendancy to overplay JJ from time to time.  If you check-raise on the flop and get called/raised you can assume you are up against KQ minimum and get out of the way, but most missed hands and smaller pairs fold here. By check-calling through the hand you are allowing any potential over cards/draws time to hit.  He has free cards all the way down.  But a raise from you on the flop would prevent him catching a draw on the turn.  It's better to win a small pot, than lose a big one, especially against an opponent with a healthy stack, so I try and take it down, whilst being prepared to lay down to a reraise if I must.

If we raise at any point preflop or on the flop we are virtually pot committed, so if we raise we have to call imo.

[PocketLady]

Yeah, say we re-raise to 7500 total on the flop villian will be shoving 10k into a 20k pot.  But I think most of the time, only a better hand shoves, partly because their chances of getting called here are quite high.  Villian passes here most of the time.  It's still possible for us to pass, depending on any info we have on the player, and it's even slightly cheaper than letting it get to the river and calling the river bet. 

[Royal Flush]

If you check-raise on the flop and get called/raised you can assume you are up against KQ minimum and get out of the way, but most missed hands and smaller pairs fold here. By check-calling through the hand you are allowing any potential over cards/draws time to hit.

So basically we should just turn our hand into a bluff rather than a hand with showdown value?

[PocketLady]

Is it a bluff? We bet because we think we have a stronger hand than the opponent, and we don't want to get into a situation where our hand isn't better than the opponents.  JJ needs to be protected, it can be a very vunerable hand.

[Royal Flush]

Is it a bluff? We bet because we think we have a stronger hand than the opponent, and we don't want to get into a situation where our hand isn't better than the opponents.  JJ needs to be protected, it can be a very vunerable hand.

That's why i re-raise pre, well not to 'protect' it but because i think slow playing is too hard OOP with JJ