Ready to call then.....

[MANTIS01]

I would be raising pre-flop almost every time. I have the advantage of a bigger stack and prob a better hand...and I want to press that advantage. The reason to press is because I am oop and my hand isn't going to like lots of flops, so it's going to be tricky to play post-flop. If my oppo calls me with a worse hand then good. Pre-flop is the BEST chance that you're going to get called by worse!

If you flat-call the pre-flop raise oop there must be a good reason for doing so. Are you trapping? If so, risky but ok. But the problem with the trapping mentality with medium strength is this...

i was ready to call his river bet then he overbets should i still call?

I don't think you can play trappy like this if you're going to second guess yourself at the business hand. You were ready to call because you have given worse the chance to bet into you. Well here it is. The bet on the end is the situation you manufactured by playing the hand this way. If you don't want this decision then play the hand another way.

What do you think your oppo puts YOU on? Because it's not J-J...and not a Q either. You look like you have a hand that can be pressured from the prior soft action. YOU HAVEN'T SHOWN STRENGTH AT ANY POINT. So your oppo can be jumping on your weakness as much as he has you beat. If your oppo has outdrawn you then it is the risk you take in playing this way. And it would be impossible to know whether you are beat or not now. But you still have to call...because that was your line.

Alternatively, you can raise pre-flop, play this hand in a more standard pressing way, and not face a tricky decision like this on the end.

[Royal Flush]

I would be raising pre-flop almost every time. I have the advantage of a bigger stack and prob a better hand...and I want to press that advantage. The reason to press is because I am oop and my hand isn't going to like lots of flops, so it's going to be tricky to play post-flop. If my oppo calls me with a worse hand then good. Pre-flop is the BEST chance that you're going to get called by worse!

If you flat-call the pre-flop raise oop there must be a good reason for doing so. Are you trapping? If so, risky but ok. But the problem with the trapping mentality with medium strength is this...

i was ready to call his river bet then he overbets should i still call?

I don't think you can play trappy like this if you're going to second guess yourself at the business hand. You were ready to call because you have given worse the chance to bet into you. Well here it is. The bet on the end is the situation you manufactured by playing the hand this way. If you don't want this decision then play the hand another way.

What do you think your oppo puts YOU on? Because it's not J-J...and not a Q either. You look like you have a hand that can be pressured from the prior soft action. YOU HAVEN'T SHOWN STRENGTH AT ANY POINT. So your oppo can be jumping on your weakness as much as he has you beat. If your oppo has outdrawn you then it is the risk you take in playing this way. And it would be impossible to know whether you are beat or not now. But you still have to call...because that was your line.

Alternatively, you can raise pre-flop, play this hand in a more standard pressing way, and not face a tricky decision like this on the end.

Do you always disregard the size of the river bet? If so i think that's a rather major flaw!

The bluff would work against his idea of our range if he bet 1/2 this amount so why does he bet this much?

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: Royal Flush

Do you always disregard the size of the river bet? If so i think that's a rather major flaw!

The bluff would work against his idea of our range if he bet 1/2 this amount so why does he bet this much?

Our oppos river bet is all-in either to maximise the pot size because he has it or to maximise pressure because he doesn't. As an unknown I am not sure I could decipher which is which.  But if you can then please feel free to share.

FWIW I didn't discount the bet size in this hand and this is because I am very thorough with poker theory and my brain is quite massive. I think that we have given our oppo no inclination that we have a hand that can call this size of bet...so why bet that much? The SIZE of the bet actually gives me more inclination to call. Tough though and is why I suggest raising pre-flop and getting it in on the flop. I am sure we aren't behind on the flop.

[UpTheMariners]

he overbet as he has 88 if he bets 80% pot i snap call his bluff.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: UpTheMariners

he overbet as he has 88 if he bets 80% pot i snap call his bluff.

So 80% pot is a MUCH better bet with 8-8.

[Royal Flush]

he overbet as he has 88 if he bets 80% pot i snap call his bluff.

Exactly. If i am in his shoes i bluff 3/4 pot as it is going to get you to pass all the hands i think you have.

If i have made a nut hand/near nut hand i am just going to shove because people think this is a bluff all the time (2 years ago it pretty much was) and they make hero calls.

[Royal Flush]

Posted by: UpTheMariners

he overbet as he has 88 if he bets 80% pot i snap call his bluff.

So 80% pot is a MUCH better bet with 8-8.

Not really, the internet is full of idiots who 'check to call' regardless of the bet size so shoves still get called.

[MANTIS01]

I agree that shoves get called, but you still need to have some semblance of a hand to call with...even if you suspect a bluff. If we c-called a turn bet as well as the flop, the all-in would make more sense to me because it looks like we have something. Here it looks like we have nothing....a fd perhaps.

For the 80% pot bet to be the better one you will need it to be called with more frequency...and it will be.

FWIW the internet is full of people who pass when you go all-in.

[MANTIS01]

FWIW the line you took in this UpTheMariners is not one I like. I understand the philosophy and think it has merit...but not with a hand as vulnerable as J-J. I think you have tried to be too clever with it. The flaw in the strat is you are setting yourself up to be faced with a major decision at some point in the hand and in this example it comes on the river. The truth of the matter is it is impossible to put your unknown oppo on a hand now. Like I said, he can be playing your weakness as readily as he is playing the board. You wouldn't know. To suggest otherwise is to tag every value bet a bluff and every all-in the nuts.

Poker is a game about decisions and in this hand you choose to make them all. You have voluntarily opted to see all 5 cards with Jacks and never prompted your opponent to make a mistake with his inferior hand. Jacks are vulnerable and that's the simple nature of the hand. By falling in love with your line you have just let your Jacks get caught, simple as. I think the standard line is better, play them fast and ask worse if he wants to make a mistake early. As played villain doesn't get asked a difficult question and as such doesn't make any mistakes.

[Royal Flush]

When he fires 80% of the pot on the river with AJ he has made a fairly major mistake in your favour!

[MANTIS01]

There is a decent chance you can play J-J vs 8-8 for ALL the chips pre-flop or on the flop. But instead we choose to see all 5 cards in the hope that our oppo bluffs a few k on the river instead. All the time risking an outdraw and playing our vulnerable hand in the most difficult way possible. Sorry, this isn't very good tournament poker.

[action man]

personally i 3 bet preflop, but as the we have called i like the check call on the flop.

I think the best line may be to lead/call the turn, that is giving your opponent a chance to bluff the hand or call, each way we are betting for value.

If we C/R the flop we are not getting called by a hand that we are beating.

Since Dan has played it passively there isnt much wrong with your line, river is a fold though in how you have played the hand.

[Royal Flush]

There is a decent chance you can play J-J vs 8-8 for ALL the chips pre-flop or on the flop. But instead we choose to see all 5 cards in the hope that our oppo bluffs a few k on the river instead. All the time risking an outdraw and playing our vulnerable hand in the most difficult way possible. Sorry, this isn't very good tournament poker.

I re-raise pre.

The idea that check calling isn't very good tournament poker though is very backward thinking.

[MANTIS01]

Posted by: Royal Flush

The idea that check calling isn't very good tournament poker though is very backward thinking.

Posted by: Royal Flush

the internet is full of idiots who 'check to call'

indeed.

[Royal Flush]

Posted by: Royal Flush

The idea that check calling isn't very good tournament poker though is very backward thinking.

Posted by: Royal Flush

the internet is full of idiots who 'check to call'

indeed.

My quote in full i believe was

Not really, the internet is full of idiots who 'check to call' regardless of the bet size so shoves still get called.