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Author Topic: Checking it down...the whys and wherefores of a tacit understanding  (Read 2630 times)
TightEnd
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« on: March 13, 2008, 11:09:30 AM »

So ladies and gentlemen..help me out here

Its a final table bubble, and the BB with has a random hand

UTG pushes in for 3,000 with blinds at 600-1,200

Monster stack flat calls, sb passes and BB makes up with a medium stack, confident it seems that two players are seeing a dry side pot to the river  in most scenarios, and having a stab to burst the bubble  the BB checks in the dark

Nothing is said, but its one of those situations where tacitly you need a monster to bet, or a hand to protect to bet?

Monster pushes in

BB has hit bottom pair but has to fold

the flop is 

Heads up the pusher has waited for 

Monster has  two hearts two spades

BB would have won the hand down the streets

Pushers doubles through plus a bit, bubble goes on for another level and a bit



Talk to me about the play of the gentleman with the twos.

Talk to me about checking it down, the ethics of it.

In what situations you bet into a dry side pot on the bubble, what you look to achieve ?

How much of "checking it down" should be tacit..what can be said? what can't be said? within a usual set of TD's rules


Thanks.
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kinboshi
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2008, 11:13:11 AM »

For me, the whole point of implicit collusion is about helping yourself.  If it doesn't benefit you, it's not in your interest to do it. 

In this case it would have been in the monster-stack's interest to check it down, which is what I'd have done.  As for what can be said - I'm no expert on this, but I guess nothing.  You shouldn't talk about the hand in progress.  But I'm sure a big smile and a loud 'check' will express your intentions fairly clearly.
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byronkincaid
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2008, 11:14:41 AM »

why would the monster stack want the bubble to burst?
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TightEnd
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2008, 11:16:36 AM »

why would the monster stack want the bubble to burst?

good point

so a big stack there is calling pre-flop to prolong the bubble?
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2008, 11:21:49 AM »

why would the monster stack want the bubble to burst?

good point

so a big stack there is calling pre-flop to prolong the bubble?

Either he wants to win the pot, or prolong the bubble. He doesn't want a 3rd party to win.
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2008, 12:10:56 PM »

why would the monster stack want the bubble to burst?

I see.  So by keeping the bubble alive for a wee-while longer, the monster stack continues to benefit from the threat of knocking out any of the other players on the bubble, allowing him to rape and pillage.

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MANTIS01
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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2008, 12:53:25 PM »

Personally I don't like monster's play here.

If he wanted to isolate the ss to win the pot or prolong the bubble he could have stuck in a little raise pre and everyone would have run for the hills. But he doesn't do this....he calls instead. That's fine because monster calling the 3k may well encourage a multi-way pot and give him odds to catch a set. So a good situation. But when the flop comes down monster NOW decides to isolate?? Why? If he does catch his set on a certainly free turn and river I think this would be a good opportunity missed. I don't mind the theory of prolonging the bubble, it's a good one, but don't call to set mine and then abandon that plan on the flop for no apparant reason. Any reason that you have for betting others off the pot existed pre-flop so why change the tactic now?

Another contradiction is that monster doesn't want the bubble to burst because he is commanding respect at the table. A good situation that he wants to continue. Well he has just bolloxed his own image up by pushing with 2's....Well Done! The respect and fear goes with this play and now the other players are more inclined to play back rather than go away.

There needs to be some solid rhyme and reason to your play whatever you decide to do. In this example monster is confused.
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2008, 12:56:58 PM »

i've seen a few people do this sort of thing, prolong the bubble? pah, they just didn't have a clue.
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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2008, 01:41:21 PM »

i've seen a few people do this sort of thing, prolong the bubble? pah, they just didn't have a clue.

indeed that is ussually the case..VERY few players would do this to prolong the bubble.
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2008, 02:48:04 PM »


In what situations you bet into a dry side pot on the bubble, what you look to achieve ?

I would bet into a dry side pot on the bubble if the chips in the middle meant my position in the tournament and thus my equity were greatly increased and if my hand reckoned to be the best right not but was vunerable to being outdrawn on future streets. E.G I hold A-10cc on a 10-7-5 two hearts flop.
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2008, 03:16:27 PM »

why would the monster stack want the bubble to burst?

I see.  So by keeping the bubble alive for a wee-while longer, the monster stack continues to benefit from the threat of knocking out any of the other players on the bubble, allowing him to rape and pillage.



one of the most important and least understood concepts of yawnament poker.
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« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2008, 03:39:02 PM »

Prolonging the bubble as monster chip leader is definitley +ev and thats what i would do with ATC given the right circumstances. In this particularly hand I think the chip daddy should isolate preflop and not really care whether who wins or loses the hand if he isolates successfully.

Once he fails to isolate pre i think the bet is fine, for the same reasons as above and his hand is vunerable to being outdrawn by the bb.
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« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2008, 05:35:28 PM »

Right Confession Time, for a couple of years after I started playing live, I understood the principle of tacit cooperation to try and eliminate an opponent, and in general if involved, was happy to cooperate to see everyone move up the ladder. Unless I had the absolute nutz I would happily check it down, and fold strong hands to an active opponent on the basis that he would only bet with the nutz.

However about 2 months ago that all changed with an incident on the bubble at my local casino.

60+ players down to 10, 9 for the final table 9 get paid.

I'm on the button with      all fold to me, I make it about 8k to go, blinds were 1000/2000, or there abouts, SB pushes for about 7k more BB calls, I call.

Flop K  high with nothing for me BB check  Me check.

Turn A check check

River  Ive made bottom pair nothing really but big blind dutifully checks, by this time we have got an audience from the other table all of whom are willing our small blind out of the tournament.

Now I had been chip leader on my table for a fair part of the night,  but had found it increasingly difficult to get any action on my stronger hands.  So I decided to do a little advertising here, I had the BB covered by about 4 - 1, so I put him all in, there were murmers of what is he doing, and comments to the fact that I must have at least a set. BB reluctantly passed showing KQ and we were on our backs

SB had pocket so he comfortably survived, and the lad who was bb in that hand bubbled about 3 hands later.


MY POINT  This was not in my opinion a Novice play by myself, it was to send out the signal that this guy is weak and should not be allowed to bully with his chip stack. 

It worked as well, as the final table lasted less than 2 hours and I got many speculative calls into my stronger hands and won quite comfortably.

Passage of incorrect information is part of the game, and I took this chance to feed some out to the rest of the people who were going to be on the final table.

Although my reputation in that card room was shot to bits at the time
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« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2008, 05:55:16 PM »

FT bubble means nothing to me unless the whole final table is getting paid
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« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2008, 07:06:17 PM »

When i played the apat tournament in newcastle there was a guy all in then me and another guy was also in the hand. I had every intention of just checking it down as you do then made the nut flush on river was thinking whether there was any point in betting as i would obviously only bet with the nuts i bet a small amount to which i was shocked when the other guy re raised me all in and he showed two pair couldn't understand his play (the bloke is a really good player as well) when he didnt even have the flush.So many times see players bluffing when a guys all in in donkaments so annoying.
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