Complex Hand Problem - Pre Flop - Cut Off Seat

[jezza777]

I would raise to around 12k this play would.. or could

1 disgiuse my hand
2 Buy the button so i have position for the remaining streets
3 Give me more information about the makeup of the hands I was up against.
4 Give me extra ways to win the pot with future bets , regardless of the flop
5 Might get me the pot there and then

Alternatively fold no way I would call here with the chip lead.

[Royal Flush]

Make a tickle raise, say 6k, get them calling then push them out on the flop given they put you on a hand. You also lose less this way if someone re-raises you.

[The Truth]

shouldn't be a call anyway. either raise or fold. depends as a player how much you will pay for info on a player. one very well known tourny player recently that they would stake up to 90% of stack for info on a player. i think it's a bit extreme however the player in question's record cannot be faulted. you find nothing out by flat calling an unraised pot.

[matt674]

I like it when someone asks a question like this, you can gain so much information on players about their style of play without ever having to sit at the table with them.

My pencil has been sharpened ready for the blondite tourney in january so keep the answers coming....... 

[The Truth]

no need to ask a question - I am happy to tell the world I am a lunatic. only too happy to raise any two cards.

[TightEnd]

funnily enough, I'm tighter than the brief and Adam combined

pencil away now monkey boy

[jezza777]

Ahhhh yes mat . But if I know that you know and you know that i know what you know then where does that leave us?

[matt674]

funnily enough, I'm tighter than the brief and Adam combined

pencil away now monkey boy

whats that smell?

is it lamb?

is it pig?

No its bull*@#*......

Monkey can spot a bluff a mile away

[Bongo]

Ahhhh yes mat . But if I know that you know and you know that i know what you know then where does that leave us?

confused 

[matt674]

Ahhhh yes mat . But if I know that you know and you know that i know what you know then where does that leave us?

Yes but if i know that you know that i know that you could give false information then i also know that you could know that i know that i'm capable of knowing that you know that..

wait hang on........ if you know - i'll get back to you on that one.

[The Baron]

For me calling isn't an option.

There aren't many flops you will like in a multi way pot with 7 8 off. The rounds are expensive (6k a round) and for me it's way past flat calling and seeing a lot of flops.

An argument could be made for a raise here as the 10k in the pot could probably be picked up with a 10 - 12k bet. It stands to reason that the first limper could have anything but if he's deep stacked it's likely he wants to see a few flops here with a range of hands. The second limper gives his hand strength away by flat calling, he has half a hand at best. The only worry for me is the blinds.

However, you cant be sure limper 1 doesn't have a big hand. You also cant be sure that the blinds behind dont have a hand to call with/reraise with. I would probably opt for patience here in that it's just slightly too risky. You have a lot of chips, you dont NEED to make moves, the structure appears to be slow as your whole table has chips. Wait for a better spot. Fold.

[ifm]

i'm definitely with the fold option.
I only know 1 player at the table.
I only have a bluffing hand.
the button could easily go allin after me (i can't call).
more importantly, i don't need to get involved at all.
Limping bleeds chips and raising can prompt a reraise from any other player in the pot.
NEXT!!

[Harry Demetriou]

Thats the spirit everyone - now we can really get into the swing of things on this problem.

Remember there is no definitive answer and any answer/play could be the right or best one depending on your style of play and interpretation of how your rivals play.

Of course we would all like to know how each of the other players at the table are playing and how the table as a whole is playing at this time but alas we do not know and have to make the most of the info that we do have.

I believe that all three plays are possible but the kinds of things that we should be thinking about have already been mentioned.

Firstly there is 10k in the pot when it's your turn to act which means that you are getting pot odds at this time of 5/1 but the implied odds are more like 50/1+ from each of those already in so the call looks pretty easy. Unfortunately there are still three players to act behind you (button and blinds) and if any of them choose to raise you are surely going to have to fold your hand.

The problem is, however, if you play this hand at all then you are going to have to flop something pretty good otherwise you are going to be more or less forced to fold to any bet on the flop and as the overwhelming majority of the time you will flop nothing it can't be that much of a mistake to fold.

To raise in this spot could also have some merit but once again if you should find a hand behind you in the blinds or button (and there is no law that says nobody there can't have a big hand) then you are going to lose more than you would really want to with a mediocre poor drawing hand like 78 offsuit. Similarly one of the first two in (and particularly the first player) could be limping with a big hand just praying for a raise behind him so that they can re raise.

Bearing this in mind I really don't like the raise in this spot but know some who would put a raise in here with a view to dumping if reraised or proceeding with extreme caution if called unless flopping perfect. After all the early limpers probably have mediocre limping type hands (thats why they limped) so I must have some chance to pick up the 10k already in there and if all else fails I may yet take control of the button position and have best/last postion on any subsequent callers for the remaining betting rounds.

Because I am in late position and will most likey get to act last I have a strong tendancy towards calling followed by folding in this position with this hand because of he large implied odds. It is possible I can bust someone with a hand like mine whilst at the same time it is in theory easy for me to get away from my hand from the flop onwards so as long as I can see the flop cheaply (a mere 1% of my stack and less than 2% omf my opponents stacks) then I think this is the route I would take.

Let us not forget, however, that despite the relatively large implied odds there are also negative or reversed implied odds here as when you get to the flop and partially hit you may well lose more than your initial 2K investment as you are going to be in a world of hurt with an 8 or 7 high flop or hitting middle or bottom pair and this would argue well for the fold in this spot.

Having said that I slightly prefer my 87 to something like KT in this spot and lean towards a call but I'm not exactly excited about my hand.

Keep the posts coming and later on I'll add the next part of the hand.

[TightEnd]

you see I said call, then later I said raise .....


politician in the making me 

[Harry Demetriou]

you see I said call, then later I said raise .....


politician in the making me 

Is your name Blunkett?

OK so I'll move onto the next stage as this thread seems to have gone quiet.