Cheap to get in but suddenly an expensive river. Have I sank?

[Benny Brox]

Playing real bad, running bad and tilting ever so slightly so I'm going to post a few hands for some advice.

$0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - Full Ring - 8 players - First hand at the table

Villain UTG+1: $19.15
Hero (or donk!?): $25

Hero posts the big blind of $0.25 Dealt to Hero [ ]

Villain raises to $0.50
Button calls $0.50
Hero calls $0.25

*** FLOP *** [ ] - POT = $1.50
Benney Wong checks
Villain has 15 seconds left to act
Villain bets $0.75
Button folds
Hero has 15 seconds left to act
Hero calls $0.75

*** TURN *** [ ] [] - POT = $3
Hero checks
Villain checks

*** RIVER *** [ ]

- POT = $3 Hero bets $2 Villain has 15 seconds left to act Villain raises to $17.90, and is all in Hero/Donk folds I know most would fold pre but I absolutely hate min-raisers at this level so I like to get in cheap sometimes, even with junk, to try and stack them if they are being cute with a high pair so that's why I called from the BB. I flop bottom pair so most of the time I am check-folding. However his half-pot bet felt like a weak continuation bet and as I was getting in cheap I called (raising was too dangerous) looking to hit a 3 or a K. On the turn I planned on a check-raise as to most eyes the 3 would be a blank. Then he raises me all-in on the river. Recently, at these stakes, I had never saw a move like this as a bluff so he either has the straight or is full housing so I fold after hitting the time bank. 1 - Should I be betting the turn almost every time when you have no previous read? 2 - Easy fold on the river?

[booder]

Playing real bad, running bad and tilting ever so slightly so I'm going to post a few hands for some advice.

$0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - Full Ring - 8 players - First hand at the table

Villain UTG+1: $19.15
Hero (or donk!?): $25

Hero posts the big blind of $0.25 Dealt to Hero [ ]

Villain raises to $0.50
Button calls $0.50
Hero calls $0.25

*** FLOP *** [ ] - POT = $1.50
Benney Wong checks
Villain has 15 seconds left to act
Villain bets $0.75
Button folds
Hero has 15 seconds left to act
Hero calls $0.75

*** TURN *** [ ] [] - POT = $3
Hero checks
Villain checks

*** RIVER *** [ ]

- POT = $3 Hero bets $2 Villain has 15 seconds left to act Villain raises to $17.90, and is all in Hero/Donk folds I know most would fold pre but I absolutely hate min-raisers at this level so I like to get in cheap sometimes, even with junk, to try and stack them if they are being cute with a high pair so that's why I called from the BB. I flop bottom pair so most of the time I am check-folding. However his half-pot bet felt like a weak continuation bet and as I was getting in cheap I called (raising was too dangerous) looking to hit a 3 or a K. On the turn I planned on a check-raise as to most eyes the 3 would be a blank. Then he raises me all-in on the river. Recently, at these stakes, I had never saw a move like this as a bluff so he either has the straight or is full housing so I fold after hitting the time bank. 1 - Should I be betting the turn almost every time when you have no previous read? 2 - Easy fold on the river?

depends on the river card

[Benny Brox]

Ha ha serves me right for editing it. (Didn't want sharks chasing me up! But looks like I've failed at that too!)

The river was the  putting a straight out there.

[Longy]

Fold preflop, calling out of position with hands like this is a leak. It is the reverse implied odds post flop that make it a poor call, what do you want to hit apart from a total miracle. Your not going to like any 1 pair hand post flop

Im not over keen on the flop call though its not as a clear cut as post flop. I think you have to have read that he will do this with a pretty wide range to justify calling, as what do you do on a non improved turn. I would fold. You don't have the implied odds that a 3 or k will bring as demonstrate very well later in the hand.

Lead the turn imo, mainly as villian is unlikely to believe that this card could have changed things, Im trying to induce a bluff with this bet so i would make a weak half pot lead trying to get a worse hand to raise.

The river is a bit of a sod as this card really doesn't hit his perceived range unless he has 1010. I think i make a crying call because there are lots of 2 pair hands out there now. My point is I would never get here preflop and flop. By the time I have bet the turn, the pot will be big enough to make the call on the end trivial, due to pot odds.

[kingkev]

Like Longy said it's a preflop leak.

in general players should fight the temptation of calling preflop min raises by giving them the same level of respcect you would give a x4 BB raise. Also the good pot odds are deceptive as villains tend to have weak holdings denying you impied odds when you flop big.

[action man]

Ha ha serves me right for editing it. (Didn't want sharks chasing me up! But looks like I've failed at that too!)

The river was the  putting a straight out there.

[  ]   sharks at .15/.25

[Benny Brox]

Fold preflop, calling out of position with hands like this is a leak. It is the reverse implied odds post flop that make it a poor call, what do you want to hit apart from a total miracle. Your not going to like any 1 pair hand post flop

Im not over keen on the flop call though its not as a clear cut as post flop. I think you have to have read that he will do this with a pretty wide range to justify calling, as what do you do on a non improved turn. I would fold. You don't have the implied odds that a 3 or k will bring as demonstrate very well later in the hand.

Lead the turn imo, mainly as villian is unlikely to believe that this card could have changed things, Im trying to induce a bluff with this bet so i would make a weak half pot lead trying to get a worse hand to raise.

The river is a bit of a sod as this card really doesn't hit his perceived range unless he has 1010. I think i make a crying call because there are lots of 2 pair hands out there now. My point is I would never get here preflop and flop. By the time I have bet the turn, the pot will be big enough to make the call on the end trivial, due to pot odds.

Very helpful Longy thanks. Getting a wee bit frustrated at these stakes at the mo. Played about 1700 hands, full ring & 6-max about $105 down total at the mo. It seems at this level there's about 25% pure donks, 25% tightys (but can't let go 2-pair at showdown or AA-QQ post-flop), 25% nits and 25% decent players. I feel the only way to make some money is to get in cheap against the donks and tightys with speculative hands, hit and try and stack them.

Retrospectively, for the hand above, I see I didn't have enough info on opponent to figure out how he played, it's just very tempting to try and stack these min-raisers even with junk. Anyway got PT3 up and running so hopefully after a few thousand hands I'll have some donks to track down. In the meantime I'll try and fold junk even to a min raise.

Anybody have any legit strategies at this level to make a profit?

[Benny Brox]

Fold preflop, calling out of position with hands like this is a leak. It is the reverse implied odds post flop that make it a poor call, what do you want to hit apart from a total miracle. Your not going to like any 1 pair hand post flop

Im not over keen on the flop call though its not as a clear cut as post flop. I think you have to have read that he will do this with a pretty wide range to justify calling, as what do you do on a non improved turn. I would fold. You don't have the implied odds that a 3 or k will bring as demonstrate very well later in the hand.

Lead the turn imo, mainly as villian is unlikely to believe that this card could have changed things, Im trying to induce a bluff with this bet so i would make a weak half pot lead trying to get a worse hand to raise.

The river is a bit of a sod as this card really doesn't hit his perceived range unless he has 1010. I think i make a crying call because there are lots of 2 pair hands out there now. My point is I would never get here preflop and flop. By the time I have bet the turn, the pot will be big enough to make the call on the end trivial, due to pot odds.

Very helpful Longy thanks. Getting a wee bit frustrated at these stakes at the mo. Played about 1700 hands, full ring & 6-max about $105 down total at the mo. It seems at this level there's about 25% pure donks, 25% tightys (but can't let go 2-pair at showdown or AA-QQ post-flop), 25% nits and 25% decent players. I feel the only way to make some money is to get in cheap against the donks and tightys with speculative hands, hit and try and stack them.

Retrospectively, for the hand above, I see I didn't have enough info on opponent to figure out how he played, it's just very tempting to try and stack these min-raisers even with junk. Anyway got PT3 up and running so hopefully after a few thousand hands I'll have some donks to track down. In the meantime I'll try and fold junk even to a min raise.

Anybody have any legit strategies at this level to make a profit?

[Benny Brox]

Ha ha serves me right for editing it. (Didn't want sharks chasing me up! But looks like I've failed at that too!)

The river was the  putting a straight out there.

[  ]   sharks at .15/.25

Well, maybe not sharks, but there's some decent players at this level and it's f*cking hard to grind out a profit at it!

[Thappers]

Very helpful Longy thanks. Getting a wee bit frustrated at these stakes at the mo. Played about 1700 hands, full ring & 6-max about $105 down total at the mo. It seems at this level there's about 25% pure donks, 25% tightys (but can't let go 2-pair at showdown or AA-QQ post-flop), 25% nits and 25% decent players. I feel the only way to make some money is to get in cheap against the donks and tightys with speculative hands, hit and try and stack them.

Retrospectively, for the hand above, I see I didn't have enough info on opponent to figure out how he played, it's just very tempting to try and stack these min-raisers even with junk. Anyway got PT3 up and running so hopefully after a few thousand hands I'll have some donks to track down. In the meantime I'll try and fold junk even to a min raise.

Anybody have any legit strategies at this level to make a profit?

I play a lot at .15/.25 and .25/.50 and have done for ages cos they just seem like a license to print money (not much money, mind you, but a few hundred a month and that's fine and dandy by me). Winning strategy? Er, well first I play at OnGame rather than Stars/FT etc. - divide your 25% of decent players by 1000 and you have about the right figure for decent players that seem to frequent the OnGame micro-stakes tables.

Secondly, I think it's a fallacy to play the 'everybody limps/minraises at this limit so I should try to see as many flops as possible with any old crap' game. You're just spewing away those 25 cents to hit miracles, which often won't get paid anyway because you're not in big enough pots for the other players to get frisky. I set myself a rule ages ago, 'try not to play unraised pots, and try to be the raiser in the pots I'm in'. This changes a little when you and your opponent are deepstacked, but as a general rule it seemed to do the trick and plugged my major leak, which was playing limpy poker and calling minraises 'on principle'.

ABC poker works best. Forget about bluffing. I play 5-max only, fire up 3 or 4 tables a time, and just play the cards as they come. I raise and 3-bet a lot in position, c-bet like 80% of the time, rarely cold-call, and play super-tight OOP. To be honest at these stakes I don't think you need to do any more than this to sustain a 4BB+ winrate.

[Benny Brox]

Very helpful Longy thanks. Getting a wee bit frustrated at these stakes at the mo. Played about 1700 hands, full ring & 6-max about $105 down total at the mo. It seems at this level there's about 25% pure donks, 25% tightys (but can't let go 2-pair at showdown or AA-QQ post-flop), 25% nits and 25% decent players. I feel the only way to make some money is to get in cheap against the donks and tightys with speculative hands, hit and try and stack them.

Retrospectively, for the hand above, I see I didn't have enough info on opponent to figure out how he played, it's just very tempting to try and stack these min-raisers even with junk. Anyway got PT3 up and running so hopefully after a few thousand hands I'll have some donks to track down. In the meantime I'll try and fold junk even to a min raise.

Anybody have any legit strategies at this level to make a profit?

I play a lot at .15/.25 and .25/.50 and have done for ages cos they just seem like a license to print money (not much money, mind you, but a few hundred a month and that's fine and dandy by me). Winning strategy? Er, well first I play at OnGame rather than Stars/FT etc. - divide your 25% of decent players by 1000 and you have about the right figure for decent players that seem to frequent the OnGame micro-stakes tables.

Secondly, I think it's a fallacy to play the 'everybody limps/minraises at this limit so I should try to see as many flops as possible with any old crap' game. You're just spewing away those 25 cents to hit miracles, which often won't get paid anyway because you're not in big enough pots for the other players to get frisky. I set myself a rule ages ago, 'try not to play unraised pots, and try to be the raiser in the pots I'm in'. This changes a little when you and your opponent are deepstacked, but as a general rule it seemed to do the trick and plugged my major leak, which was playing limpy poker and calling minraises 'on principle'.

ABC poker works best. Forget about bluffing. I play 5-max only, fire up 3 or 4 tables a time, and just play the cards as they come. I raise and 3-bet a lot in position, c-bet like 80% of the time, rarely cold-call, and play super-tight OOP. To be honest at these stakes I don't think you need to do any more than this to sustain a 4BB+ winrate.

Thanks for that. At $0.10/$0.25, you're always facing new players so it's probably correct to play ABC stuff as you won't have a read on most people. This leads to the problems I'm having - with no read and marginal hands what is the correct play? For example, when you raise in position with say AJs, flop comes A 9 T with two suits that don't match yours, then you're check raised, how do you proceed? Should you lay it down until you discover the opponent's a donk? I realise it depends on how much you're raised, stack sizes etc... but I'm having trouble controlling and keeping pots small with marginal holdings.

[Thappers]

Thanks for that. At $0.10/$0.25, you're always facing new players so it's probably correct to play ABC stuff as you won't have a read on most people. This leads to the problems I'm having - with no read and marginal hands what is the correct play? For example, when you raise in position with say AJs, flop comes A 9 T with two suits that don't match yours, then you're check raised, how do you proceed? Should you lay it down until you discover the opponent's a donk? I realise it depends on how much you're raised, stack sizes etc... but I'm having trouble controlling and keeping pots small with marginal holdings.

In my experience this doesnt happen very often at these stakes (check-raise a pf raiser on A high board). I call 100% of the time shorthanded here with AJs if I wasn't reraised pf and because I have position, and re-evaluate the turn. Sometimes I would just check the flop if it's headsup and give the free card for pot control and because I'm likely best, then bet the turn regardless if he checks again. What you don't want to do is end up getting all your chips in with AJ here, unless as you say you know the opponent is a total donk who might be checkraising with Ax (and this happens too!). Just try not to stack off with one pair, and wait for better spots I guess. The better spots always come eventually.